Male Roles, Obligations and Options for Building a Fulfilling Life | Scott Galloway

And this is the goal. The goal is no because you're going to get nos. And then I'm going to call you after you've made the approach. You're going to text me, I did an approach. Did you get a no? Yeah, I got a no. That's exactly the point. That's the goal. Cuz everyone you admire, everyone you think has killed it. The only thing I can guarantee you is there were a ton of nos. than getting to one of the top 10 podcasts in the world, getting to a person as a partner who's higher character and hotter than you, getting to make more money than you would have ever guessed that person would have made. The only thing that got them there was the willingness in the endurance to re to anticipate no. Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, where we discuss science and science-based tools for everyday life. I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor of neurobiology and opthalmology at Stanford School of Medicine. My guest today is Scott Galloway. Scott Galloway is a professor at New York University's Stern School of Business and one of the world's leading public educators on intelligent life design, including finances, relationships, and as today's conversation also covers, on the socopolitical landscape. Today we mainly talk about masculinity and what men young and old and everything in between are facing today in terms of their roles to take in work, in relationships, and their health. And today we don't just review the data. You'll hear statistics. So Scott is very grounded in quantitative data, which is important, but he also shares several clear actionable steps that you can take daily to ensure that you're making progress in work and relationships and finances. We also get into a bit of debate or more about things like alcohol, the benevolence or lack thereof of big tech and social media. And we talk a lot about the male female dynamics in terms of the consequences of single bomb homes and divorce, but just generally male female dynamics. So while today's episode does include a lot of exploration of different topics that frankly I didn't anticipate, it's also very proactive. Scott delineates the things that you can do and frankly should do each day. These aren't just lists or hacks, but effective tools that come from knowledge, data, his deep thinking, and that reflect the landscape we are in now. I'm very grateful that Scott took the time for this conversation. You'll see that we agree on many things. We disagree on several. He's a very deep thinker, extremely smart, obviously. He also cares about people. That comes through over and over again. And he's extremely generous today on your behalf with indeed tough love knowledge. Before we begin, I'd like to emphasize that this podcast is separate from my teaching and research roles at Stanford. It is however part of my desire and effort to bring zero cost to consumer information about science and science related tools to the general public. In keeping with that theme, today's episode does include sponsors. And now for my discussion with Scott Galloway. Scott Galloway, welcome. Thanks, man. It's good to see you. Actually, I was nervous driving over here. I I I like you and respect you and I was think I was trying to figure out why I was nervous. I really want to I want to do well today. And the last time I had this feeling was when I was going to do Rich Rolls podcast. I really like like you. I really like and respect Rich and I remember thinking I had that same feeling. I wanted to do well. Anyways, good to be here. Oh man. Well, great to have you here. It's funny you say that cuz um you know I was coming here and I was thinking, yeah, look up to Scott. Like I respect him and we've had one conversation prior to this that ended up being quite extended conversation. And I'm I told Rob right before coming in here, our producer, I'm super fired up toss to learn from you and just sit down and chat with you. So I actually am going to do something differently this podcast than any other podcast, which is the question I'm about to ask or the kind of thing I'm about to pose, I normally would do off camera. Okay. I'm do it on camera, which is coming in here today. It occurred to me that we as a How old are you? I'm going to be 62 in November. 62. You look great, man. you can share what you're doing if we get the time. Um, fitness wise, I'm 50 and the risk we run into, I realize, is that when I was 16, 20, 30, etc., yes, I wanted knowledge. Mhm. Maybe even wisdom from elders, but I also knew with certainty that they didn't understand a thing about what it was like to be that age at that time. So I realize that as much as we might think we know, we don't know what it's like to be 16, 25, 30, 40 year old men, and we'll also talk about women today, but probably mostly men in 2026. And so how do we reconcile that in a discussion like this? I just wanted to ask you, how do you think about that? because so much of your content and what you're teaching out there is about timeless truths, but there's also a lot of things that are happening now, not just pain points, but maybe opportunities that I don't know how do you think about do we really know like how how should we pass along information in a way that's truly useful to people because that's what obviously we both want this to be about. Well, just what you said, you can't you can't fully relate to a 16 if you're not 16 years old and know what they're going through. And what you know, you you guys are skateboarders. And when I was 16, I got home and it was either watch cartoons until my mom got home or it was take risks and go out and find friends and and do things. And now there's so much temptation at home between big tech and having a casino in your pocket and Netflix in your pocket and porn in your pocket. it's just hard to relate to what they go through. I think the first thing is just acknowledging, you know, you don't know what you don't know and then turning to data because there are people who look at the data and I try to counter my biases or my, you know, my uninformed thesis with data and so I try to find good people, good research and inform it. Also, it helps. I have 15 and 18-year-old sons. I ask them a lot. I observe them a lot. I hang out with them a lot and you start to pick up on stuff. But I think the first is just being open to people pushing back and recognizing unfortunately every once in a while in the comment when someone points something out and going if it really hurts and it's upsetting it's usually because they're right and they found some soft tissue and they've pressed on it. So and I try to be open to learning and and you know just acknowledging when I I got it wrong. What do you think are the could be three, could be five, could be 10 things that all males should strive to check the boxes on in order to have a good life, not just to, you know, be great in some particular role, but like what are what are the macronutrients in your opinion of becoming a healthy, happy, fulfilled male? I think every person, not just every man, needs a code. And that is you're going to be faced with hundreds of decisions each day and you want to make generally speaking a higher proportion of good decisions than the peer group. Right? So what helps is a code. Some people get that code from religion, the military. There are really strong family connections. I actually got my first kind of code from my first job there. I worked at Morgan Stanley. There was just a certain level of professionalism. I got code from sports at UCLA. Uh but I I wonder there's so many lost men right now. I wonder if masculinity can be a code or some sort of aspirational form of masculinity where people born as males might have an easier time leaning in. And I should also say that I don't think masculinity or femininity are sequestered to people born as males or females. I'm drawn to men who are more feminine as friends. My close friends kind of take care of me and are more nurturing. But I think for young men, if they feel like they can lean into some positive masculine attributes that it could serve as a code. So I loosely break it down into three very reductive qualities and that is the first is to be a provider. I'm not talking about the way the world is but the way the world should be. I think every young man should have a plan and have an assumption that at some point he will have to be the economic lead or provider for for his family. Sometimes that means getting out of the way of your partner who's better at that whole money thing. Sometimes it means providing more domestic or emotional support and labor if your partner is accelerating economically. When my partner had a kid, she was working at Goldman Sachs. She was making more money than me. I was a new academic at NYU. I was making $160,000 living in New York, which is may sound like a lot of money, but it wasn't. And she was making substantially more. So, I tried to pick up slack and and and provide more labor at home and take charge of our finances. But I think at the outset, trying to find a plan to be economically relevant in a capitalist society is really important because whether we like to admit it or not, a male from a self-esteem standpoint, from a sexual currency standpoint, from the esteem of the tribe or the society is going to be disproportionately evaluated based on your economic viability. So from an early age, try and have a plan. You may not have to stick to that plan. I'm not saying you got to go to Harvard and go to work at Goldman Sachs, but maybe you're going to go to trade school, learn how to install energy efficient HVAC, but you just need a plan. You be moving towards something. The second is protector. If you think about the most masculine jobs, fireman, cop, military, the notion is you develop skills and strengths such you can protect others. And the most, if you will, manly, masculine, satisfied I ever feel is at night when I feel as if my family feels protected. The kids are asleep, my partner feels loved and supported, and I've I've been able to hopefully through partnership, through economic valuability, been able to provide a warm, comfortable life for them so they can focus on the things that are important to them. And I think unfortunately a lot of men that we should look up to, whether it's the president, I apologize for getting political, or the wealthiest man in the world who are naturally going to be seen as male role models, they seem to have skipped the protection part. that the whole shooting match, the whole reason you make money, that's the means, but the ends is such that you can protect others. I find that's the most rewarding thing in the world. And then finally, procreator, and that is uh I think we need to stop demonizing young men's desire for relationships and sexual desires. I think a young man wanting to have sex is can be a tremendous motivator to be a better man. It's like fire. It can be incredibly destructive, but if you put it in a steel casing with spark plugs, it can create tremendous progress. And the story I use is that I was at the Raleigh Hotel in Miami and I saw a very attractive woman. And it was the middle of the day and without the benefit of alcohol, I didn't have the confidence to approach her, but I promised myself I was going to approach her. And then I went out to get my car from the valet and was sitting in the car and I'm like, "God, you're such a [ __ ] wimp." So I ran back in, went up to her and said, "Hi, I'm Scott. Where are you from?" Anyways, long story short, 18 months later, our son's middle name is is uh born was Raleigh. And I I didn't look at her, Andrew, and think I'd really like lower rates on auto insurance. I looked at her and thought, I'd really like to have sex with her. And I think young men's desire for relationships and sex, if channeled correctly, makes you want to be a better man. Have a a kindness practice. Demonstrate excellence. Shower for God's sakes. Work out. Have a plan. Have resilience. Have perseverance. demonstrate excellence. So in some provider, protector, procreator, where I think I missed it in the book, and I'd love your response because I'm open to criticism here is one that's what work worked for me and I think a lot of younger people there's different forms of masculinity that don't necessarily involve being economically secure, finding finding a mate. And also the component I've really missed is service. And I think a great great kind of one question or proxy for masculinity in terms of what you do every day is are you optimizing for attention or service? Right? And and then the litmus test that Richard Reeves kind of gave me uh who's sort of my Yoda on this stuff is this notion of surplus value that some men are born males but never they die never having become men. It's not about a religious ceremony and age or you know some sort of experience or ritual. It's about at some point can you honestly look in the mirror and say I add surplus value. I create more tax revenue in jobs than I absorb. Everyone absorbs tax revenue if you're in America. I listen to more people complain than I complain. Right? I love more people than love me. And I didn't get that. I don't think I really became a man well into my 40s because I was always I took a capitalist approach to relationships. I always wanted more. I wanted a girlfriend that was better to me than I was to her. I wanted a job where I was getting paid more maybe than I was contributing. And then what you realize as you get older is the whole shooting match is to to create surplus value, provide, be a better friend, be a better partner. There's no way my kids will ever be able to return as much as I've invested in them. I mean, we have these, you know, the Hallmark Channel and insurance commercials will tell me that I'll have these moments, and I get those, but my kids are never up at 2 am worried about me. They just aren't, right? I' I'm spending a ton I always say to them, you're adding negative value. Just be clear, you go to these amazing schools, all these talented people, negative value. Me and your mom, we are constantly investing in you. This would be impossible for you to pass back. What I figured out is that's the whole shooting match is I'm finally Andrew finally at a place of surplus value. I apologize for the word salary provider, protector, procreator. Um are you are you optimizing for service not attention? And do you can you really say you add surplus value? I'd like to take a quick break to acknowledge one of our sponsors, David. David makes protein bars unlike any other. Their newest bar, the Bronze Bar, has 20 grams of protein, only 150 calories, and zero grams of sugar. 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The reflection is that what you started with that every day you're making decisions all day long. And you want more of those to be good decisions than bad decisions relative to your peers. I think that's a a terrific way to think about striving and I've never heard it posed that way. So I really just want to bold underline and highlight that for everyone. For the eighth grader, for the 12th grader, for the college junior, the 40year-old man, make better decisions than the average around you. The problem I have, I guess I do have one one caveat here, is um that most people won't remember this, but that show Jerry Springer I think was so popular because people like to focus on all the people doing worse than them because it makes it easy to stay right where you're at. Yeah. So, who are the comparison points that one can keep in mind as they strive to make these better decisions each day? Because I think that first statement you made is touching into some serious wisdom. So, who is the comparison point and how do you keep that framed? because you study markets, you understand markets. What's the market comparison point in this? Make more better decisions than worse ones relative to the average as you progress through your day. I think it's really important, I mean, you're talking a little bit about role models and references. And so, first off, one myth I think we need to dispel is that success equals exploitation. There's a very unhealthy zeitgeist, especially from the far left, that anyone who's very successful is exploiting others. And I think we need to puncture that narrative and say you should strive to be successful. And success might mean certain things for other people. I didn't grow up with money. So for me, success for most of my life was trying to get economic security. I I was anxiety plagued my mom and I, economic anxiety, and it was like a ghost following us around telling us we weren't worthy. So my role models were always people who had figured out economic success and people have to pick their own role models. I always thought masculinity was getting back in someone's face who wasn't didn't give me the respect I thought I deserved. I was that [ __ ] that when someone cut me off in traffic felt like I needed to speed up and cut them off. That if the Delta ticket counter representative wasn't kind to me or was busy, I would get back in their face. It's like, well, do you realize I'm a 1K member? And then, you know, a decent reference point is just men you admire and they're everywhere that perhaps don't can take blows. They realize someone might be having a bad day. But you said something that that inspired a thought in that what I just outlined is pretty meta. You know, kind of themes that sometimes aren't that actionable. So, I just want to bring it down one level. As we were talking about off mic, I try and mentor two or three young men at any given time. And these are young men that quite frankly need mentoring. They're struggling. Most of them might be still living at home. You know, they're not these aren't people who went to Brown and are working at Goldman Sachs. And so, some just some more tactical things that I think serve as a reference point for how you succeed or how you make progress. The first thing I do, the first hack is I say, "Unlock your phone." And I'm going to look at it. And there's a little bit of nervousness. So, what I do to loosen them up or lubricate it is I say, "Okay, let me tell you two things. First is I gamble. I don't gamble on FanDuel. I gamble with options. I know it's stupid. I know I'm going to lose money over the long term. I'm a smart guy. I love markets, but that dope a hit I get is too seductive. So, I sell calls and and and puts. Uh I consume porn. That's sort of not that's not a that's an embarrassing thing to say at 61, but yeah, I still consume porn. But I tell them that and it lubricates or it it makes them more comfortable. I open their phone. Everyone has an advantage. Most young men who are not excelling, if you will, by traditional western capitalist standards, their advantage is capital. Specifically, their human capital. They have time. And within about 5 to 7 minutes, I can find eight hours of time from Tik Tok, from X, from porn, from gambling sites, from YouTube. I'm like, we're going to find eight hours. You tell me we're we're going to reduce this eight hours. Next week I'm going to check and we're going to reallocate that capital into three things. The first is we're going to get really [ __ ] strong. I just think the best anti-depressant is moving weights, building some bulk or running far. I' I've jokingly said every man under the age of 30 should aspire to be able to walk into any room and know if [ __ ] got real they could kill and eat everybody or outrun them. Like there's different forms of fitness. You can be fast, you can be flexible, you can be strong, but there's no excuse. the male form is blessed with, you know, more bone density, double twitch muscle, all the things you talk about, this incredible substance that pours over called testosterone. You're going to look back when you're my age and think, why wasn't I just fast, sleek, a monster, just strong, so we're going to work out at least three times a week. The second thing is we got to make some money. And I want you to make money outside your house. You know, I don't care if you're a lift driver, task rabbiter, Panera is hiring people at 18 bucks an hour and only one out of 10 that accept a job actually owe up show up the first day. So, if you make if you really make the effort, you can make decent money. And the great thing about getting a taste for the flesh of money is you start learning how to make more money. If you want to make a lot of money, unless you're smart enough to be born to rich parents, start off by making a little bit of money and you'll start to figure out capitalism, right? And the final thing is at least three times a month we're going to put ourselves in a group sitting where we are trying to achieve something great in the agency of others. A nonprofit, a church group, a sports league, a writing club. And then the second phase of that is we're going to do something what I call the approach. Hey, hey man, do you want to go watch the Jets game? Right? An expression of friendship. And then if you're really comfortable, an expression of romantic interest while making them feel safe. would you like to grab a coffee sometime? And this is the goal. The goal is no because you're going to get nos. And then I'm going to call you after you've made the approach, you're going to text me, I did an approach. Did you get a no? Yeah, I got a no. That's exactly the point. That's the goal. Cuz everyone you admire, everyone you think has killed it. The only thing I can guarantee you is there were a [ __ ] ton of nos in getting to one of the top 10 podcasts in the world. Getting to a person as a partner who's higher character and hotter than you, getting to make more money than you would have ever guessed that person would have made. The only thing that got them there was the willingness and the endurance to re to anticipate no. And unfortunately, big tech is setting up an algorithm that convinces you that a frictionless life is a good life and that you never need to endure no. And what you end up with is a lack of skills to to p persevere, to realize you're okay. And that's what I ask the kids the next day. Are you okay? Yeah, I'm bummed out, but you're okay. If a man under the age of 30 works out three times a week, works 30 hours a week outside of the house, right? And is volunteering, that immediately puts him in the top 8% of all young men. And I apologize for the word salad here, but something I hate is the incel movement. involuntarily celibate. Right? Throughout history, 99% of men have been involuntarily celibate for most of their lives. There's few things young men would rather be doing than having sex. Only 40% of men have reproduced throughout history. 80% of women. So, no man has a birthight to reproduce. In the West, it's actually now 75%. So, young men have more agency than they ever have. Now, if you do those things right, just those three things, work outside of the house, work out, have a kindness practice, uh volunteer in the service of others, you're immediately going to put yourself in the top desile of young men. And if you're in the top desile of young men, I can guarantee you over time you will become voluntarily incelibate, which is awesome because you'll establish a relationship. And young men under the age of 30, a lot of the research shows, benefit more from a relationship than women. Yet only one in three men under the age of 30 is in a relationship. Whereas two in three women are in a relationship. And you think, well, Scott, that's mathematically impossible. It's not because women are dating older because they want more economically and emotionally viable men. So, I'll circle back to the more tactical recommendations. Get fit, start making some money, have a plan, and start doing things in the agency of others. I think the ultimate hack for depression or if you're feeling bad about yourself is to start helping others and to always keep in mind and this is the hard part that the antichrist of your progress as a young man the devil the [ __ ] enemy the villain here the bond villain with trillions of dollars is big tech. They are trying to figure out with AI a million times a second how to convince you to spend one more second a day on your phone sequestered from your relationships because they're a shareholder value. 40% of the S&P is 10 companies whose sole mission is to monetize your time. And unfortunately they're not they're not bad people but what they're doing has resulted in a small group a cohort of men. It's not small. Millions of men who are evolving into a new species of asocial, asexual males, who wake up at the age of 30 thinking they've had a frictionless life, living at home, obese, anxious, and depressed, having never developed the skills that they need to do well professionally, personally. So big tech is not your friend. If you do not figure out how to modulate big tech products, whether it's Instagram or YouTube, you are falling into a trap of eventually being sequestered and not developing the skills to establish the most important thing in life and that is relationships. Two questions about big tech and I'll just push back a little bit on the big tech thing. Uh not because I'm afraid of big tech. I did grow up in Silicon Valley so I I Well, you're at Stanford. Yeah. Invariably have a different relationship to it. And I uh I'm not um name dropping. I happen to be close with some of the people that run these companies or in number, you know, two or number four slots or, you know, in some cases who run the companies. One who I've never met, who I'll just raise first, um is who you referred to earlier, the richest man in the world is Elon Musk. And I was frankly a little bit surprised that you um called him out when discussing the importance of being a protector. I understand the political side. Well, let's just for the moment I will just set Trump aside. Um, very polarizing figure. Happy to go there if you want, but I know your stance on him. But the the mention of Elon and as a nonp protector surprised me because I think of Elon as somebody who seems to love his children very much. Uh, he's organized family differently than most, but he certainly has the capacity to take care of them. Who is committed to big projects. Mhm. I mean, a a superhuman level of of output in terms of just neural link, the field that I'm closest to, right? Phenomenal progress. And that's just one of the SpaceX Neural Link, Tesla X, etc. So, I'm just curious what um motivated that. Do you that um makes you uh because I don't see him as a nonproctor. I I don't know that I see him as a protector of a particular kind in his personal life, but I don't have access to that. But in terms of his motivation to pro protect our species, I personally believe his desire to get to Mars is a genuine one to have an option uh for humanity. So I see him as a protector. And I'll probably piss off a lot of people by saying this, but that doesn't mean I universally adopt everything he says and does, but I see him as kind of an awesome figure in our history who's like, "Let's get to Mars in case this Earth thing doesn't work out." And also, let's get to Mars cuz it's awesome. I think that's an entirely fair viewpoint. and you're adding nuance to it. So, let's talk about Elon Musk. If I had a red button that I could push and get rid of all of big tech or Elon Musk, somehow he could float away like a Gabriel Garcia Marquez uh uh character and not die, but just not not have happened. I wouldn't press the button. I think big tech and Elon Musk are net goods for the world. We're going to get to EVs. We're going to get to Mars faster because of Elon Musk. He inspired the EV race, which is good for the world. The problem is with the word net. And as it relates to masculinity and as a role model for young men, he's probably one of the best role models in terms of being super aggressive, taking risks, ignoring the noise, and just being laser-like focused, telling an amazing story, garnering capital. I mean, there's just no getting around it. The guy's just an inspiration. I think the whole shooting match is if you become the richest man in the world, I think he moved to protection. I would argue that he's not a great role model and that he has not done a great job of convincing younger men that protection and taking care of others. I think the way he acquits himself online by punching down when he says something mean about somebody and I know this and I'm fine because I have I have money and I'm not dependent upon any one person's opinion of me. But if he says something negative about you and calls you names, his 120 million followers come for you. And I think as a general rule, and this is true for everybody, but especially for men, you never punch down. You just don't. anyone. I'm I'm openly I make personal attacks on people. This is technically a personal attack on Elon Musk. To call someone not not not good a good role model, that's a personal attack. But I never make personal attacks of anyone who isn't marketkedly more powerful than me. And I find that a lot of these people, Donald Trump and Elon Musk, have no problem punching down. So again, it goes back to this. Is he a net good for the world? I acknowledge the point. And I would even argue, yeah, he is. But that doesn't he should also be held accountable for his blessings. I can't stand the fact that he should post America and the government. If you look at the most successful companies in the world, they're littered up and down the coast right now. Whether it's Qualcomm and San Diego, SpaceX and Snap here, head north to Salesforce and Meta and Google, keep going, you hit Amazon and Microsoft, and then it stops once you get to the Canadian border. And then you have to go all the way up to Lululemon to find a multi-billion dollar company. Come back down to where you teach at UC San Diego and those great companies and it stops and you got to go to another 7,000 kilometers to get the Marcato Libé and Buenosarees. There's something about America that creates unbelievable opportunity that creates the wealthiest men in the world. And I find that these tech brothers have a total lack of appreciation for the sacrifices in the system built in America and are the first to ship post the government and complain about regulation and things getting in the way. I find that especially obnoxious. But let me acknowledge the point. I think on the whole Elon Musk and big tech are a net good for the world, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't hold them accountable and ask why would you do these things when you're so blessed? So, this gets to the heart of something that I think is extremely important, which is we're living in the age of everything pretty much being public about public figures. Not everything, but many more facets of their lives than ever before in history. In part because they share many more facets of their lives. It's not just that stuff gets unearthed. It's like they're talking about their company. They're also in the role of arguing with their ex on sometimes online. And you know, you see that their kids sometimes will will be apparent who they are. You know, it's interesting. My my dad, first generation immigrant who came here, became a scientist, and he he's from Argentina, and he along these lines, he always said it was funny to him that when you would go to somebody's office in the United States, a professor or a businessman or something, the picture of his family was facing out. He said that was so weird. He said, "In Argentina, your picture of your wife and your kids and your and your dog were facing in. That's yours. you don't share that with a person coming to your office. Like who would do that? This oversharing thing if it when you look back is a kind of a a long-standing theme in American business and it it shows up even more so of course online. So to me this this idea of okay Elon for instance but very different um role model figure someone that I consider a close friend Joo Willink incredibly impressive true warrior great dad great husband I know his family amazing human being in so many ways and he's kind of like the tough football coach that a lot of guys didn't have that younger guys I think that's one of the reasons people gravitate towards him you don't wonder whether or not he really can do what he says you ought to do because he does it every day and he posts it on his watch. So Jaco is a really good example of somebody that people admire and I consider Jaco one example. So why not look at public figures you and perhaps even me for instance and just look at it these people as a buffet of options to adopt certain traits but not others be doing great things and assuming that the other things they're doing aren't you know truly atrocious right I mean criminal atrocious you know I don't know that we're asking the people who are role models leaders business leaders I don't think we're placing a reasonable expectation on them I don't say this for any personal reasons I I've known replete with flaws for the very long time. So I don't claim to not have them, never have. But then young guys are might be thinking, well, I have to be perfect, too. And if I'm not perfect and I don't have 150 million followers, I better have a fraternity of people to protect me. This is the kind of the underlying current that I think has driven the toxic end of the hate the word, the manosphere. I hate it because it's become too mishmashy. Mhm. It's not it's not even a continuum. It's just a mess. So, what do you have to say and think about the expectation that the leaders of the world, the role model not have these flaws? At the same time, telling guys, hey, like ask and get told no. I mean, you and I both know I don't know if it's real world data or if it's statistical data, but I have many women friends in my life and I have a sister. If an attractive guy rolls up on a woman and says, "Hey, you want to get coffee sometime?" It's romantic. It's romantic. If a guy that's not attractive does that, it's creepy. It's creepy. So, how do you tell a guy that isn't good-looking? To do that, and then not be called a creep. And not just be called a creep, but be called a creep on an app, which isn't just designed to prevent sexual assault, but is also designed to share information about who to date and not to date. And guys get black. I'm told by young guys, I'm not on dating apps, but that guys get blacklisted basically, not because of sexual assault, but because, you know, they get called out as like a bad kisser. He didn't smell so good or something. This is the stuff that used to be in private discussions among women. I know this cuz I have a sister, right? Women talk. I listen through the wall, right? What do they talk about? And now it's public. There's parallel construction here. I'm sure you're tracking it. But for everyone listening, it's like this is a serious problem. I mean, can't we acknowledge that somebody like Elon, let's just stay on that example, is a is a phenom that probably has never existed inund at least a hundred years. Has huge vision. Sure, he might have some like issues in his in his life that are none of my business. And yet he has a lot of good example to set for young men. I believe that. And it also gives permission to not be perfect without harming people. So, uh, acknowledge the point. There's a lot there, but I still think if someone is um constantly optimizing for attention to draw cheap capital to his firms and is very open and very critical of others and is probably the most dominant force in electing the next president, um that we should pay very close attention to his activities, whether it's a reported addiction to ketamine and and sleeping with a loaded gun next to his bed and not living with any of his children, whether it's you think that should be public fair game. I think if he wants to put certain aspects of his life out there constantly for affirmation, that that type of scrutiny is probably fair game. I also acknowledge the point that people are human and you need to have some grace and say, well, unless you're perfect, try and learn from people, try and understand them, and try and demonstrate some grace. The other thing going back to big tech is that we have connected um economic value to tearing down people. So you've had bestsellers. I've had bestsellers. I still my book hasn't come out yet. I hope for it to be a bestseller. You haven't? Do you have a book? No, it comes out in September. It's been delayed for a while, but but I appreciate the I feel like I've already read it. No. Well, God God willing as well. If it doesn't it doesn't Let me Let me prepare because I think you're actually my I don't know you well, but I do know you. I get the sense that like me a lot of the criticism doesn't just bounce right off you that you take the stuff to heart and sometimes it upsets you. I know it. Okay, I'll say it upsets me. Some of it does, but it's not the criticism that people think upsets me. That upsets me, but that's a different story. Your book will be a bestseller. You you could put out you could you could put out I don't know the the the script of The Sound of Music and it's going to be a bestseller. It'll be better than if I had done that, but not better than The Sound of Music. There you go. And this is what uh Tik Tok and YouTube, the algorithms, it someone will immediately say, "This is why Andrew Huberman's book is bullshit." Because if they put a well-known figure's name in front of a best-selling book and says [ __ ] and creates antagonism and comments, the algorithms pick up on that, optimize it, it'll get millions of views, which is more Nissan ads and more shareholder value. So there is not only a healthy check on people's power, more scrutiny. The president should get a lot of scrutiny. The president deserves to have his business and personal life uh to a certain extent at least where it demonstrates character looked into and examined and I think a certain amount of power and healthy check on power is probably a healthy thing. Unfortunately now there's economic incentive around tearing people down. Like I don't know about you I do have a real fear. I am highly imperfect professionally and personally. I've engaged in a lot of professional and personal behavior that I am not proud of. I've been divorced. I haven't been as kind to people that have worked for me as I should have been. And I'm worried it's all going to come crashing down. And a lot of times I feel like the stuff I'm saying on podcasts like this, I'm trying to portray myself as being better than I actually am. I have huge imposttor syndrome. And big tech has an economic incentive in trying to find as many guardians of gotcha pins as possible because if you get to a certain point of fame or credibility, there's just too much money in trying to find the soft tissue on you. So there's a very unhealthy attribute in our society where we're all just waiting for bad news and there's economic incentive to say, "Well, this person isn't perfect. Look what this person did." So I agree with you. We need to demonstrate a little bit more grace. Something I really hate about my party, I consider myself a proud progressive, is these purity tests, right? That Oh, you know, I I put out a picture of me and a bunch of buddies that I went to UCLA with. One's a an aircraft carrier pilot, one's an opthalmologist. Like, it was a picture of all of us, and I've said, you know, find impressive men and and befriend them. I think I saw that post. You were the one towering over the rest of them. Yeah. I think I shrunk. Huh. Isn't that weird? No, I don't think you know you now. I was 6'3 in college. I'm 61 and a half now. That's nice. I'm at an age where I'm shrinking anyways. And I knew I was just waiting for it. White privilege. What a douchebag. What, you know, just all the comments and all the sort of, you know, people people coming after you, right? Or people who can't just say, "Oh, good for you. Well done." And that's just part of it. And that's a small price to pay for a certain level of success, but the algorithms immediately grab that and elevate it because there's money and antagonism. A thoughtful nuance conversation online and a positive reinforcing comment that that doesn't tickle the sensors. If you can create a fight online, if you say mRNA vaccines alter your DNA, you're going to get a lot of comments and the algorithms love that and it'll elevate it. So unfortunately, we have attached 40% of the market value of the S&P to incendiary content that tears us apart. And the result is people now don't believe that Russian troops pouring over the border in Ukraine is their enemy. They believe that their neighbor with a Trump sign is their real enemy. Or someone who doesn't believe your ideology around gender politics is your enemy. And unfortunately, it's being I believe, and I know this sounds paranoid, but doesn't mean I'm wrong. these poorest platforms that have an economic incentive and antagonistic content are being fueled uh by bad actors whether it's the GRU or the CCP who look at Americans say we can't beat them economically we can't beat them kinetically so let's get them to hate each other and that is Americans now perceive other Americans as the biggest threat so one it is healthy to look at powerful people that have huge influence such as you and to a lesser extent me and question their beliefs and critical articles of them. It crushed me when the I can't remember was the Atlantic or the New York or New Yorker came out with sort of a critical review of my book. It was really upsetting to me. And I think part of the thing that was so upsetting was when we were talking about this off mic, it meant some of it was true. That's healthy. It's healthy when there's thoughtful criticism around your book. But when I have hundreds of comments accusing me of [ __ ] that never happened and then you look at it and it's dogm Wisconsin 331 with three followers, that's a bot. And the fact that these platforms choose not to screen out those bots because they know more incendiary comments that create more comments and more Nissan ads, I think that is tearing at the fabric of America. But I just want to acknowledge the point. I think maturity is realizing people aren't perfect. Learn from them what you can. But I do think the wealthiest man in the world and the president should be held to a higher standard. I think they have extraordinary blessings. I think their decisions matter and I think it's I think the scrutiny they come under is warranted. And I will say this, I think the president to a certain extent Elon Musk have created a lot of cloud cover for our imperfections. As many of you know, I've been taking AG1 for nearly 15 years now. I discovered it way back in 2012, long before I ever had a podcast, and I've been taking it every day since. The reason I started taking it, and the reason I still take it, is because AG1 is, to my knowledge, the highest quality and most comprehensive of the foundational nutritional supplements on the market. It combines vitamins, minerals, prebiotics, probiotics, and adaptogens into a single scoop that's easy to drink, and it tastes great. It's designed to support things like gut health, immune health, and overall energy. And it does so by helping to fill any gaps you might have in your daily nutrition. Now, of course, everyone should strive to eat nutritious whole foods. I certainly do that every day. But I'm often asked, if you could take just one supplement, what would that supplement be? And my answer is always AG1 because it has just been oh so critical to supporting all aspects of my physical health, mental health, and performance. I know this from my own experience with AG1, and I continually hear this from other people who use AG1 daily. If you would like to try AG1, you can go to drink a1.com/huberman to get a special offer. For a limited time, AG1 is giving away six free travel packs of AG1 and a bottle of vitamin D3 K2 with your subscription. Again, that's drink AG1 with the numeral one.com/huberman to get six free travel packs and a bottle of vitamin D3 K2 with your subscription. I disagree um vehemently with one point, which is that I'm more influential than you are. You're incredibly influential. In fact, a a an ex-girlfriend's sisterh who went to NYU asked me if I knew who you were. I said, "Of course." And and she said her words, "For our generation, Scott is like a father to us." It's like, "We" and she happens to be in venture capital, but um so maybe there's a finance link there, too. And I but I pressed on that a little bit and and just asked and and she said, "Yeah, you know, we look up to him. We listen to him. He's he's very paternal to us." So, I thought you might appreciate that. Um I do appreciate that. Although I would have woman as well. I'd appreciate it more if she'd said older brother. I'm very conscious of my age now. But really, 100%. You're in your 60s, you're super fit, you got two healthy boys, you're in a happy relationship, you got huge reach, you I imagine your bank accounts are fine, and you're trying to and you're actively uh engaged in service. I I in my eyes, you're doing great. I appreciate that, but I' I'd rather be doing I'd rather be in this spot at 40 at 41, not 61. I'm very I'm very self-conscious about my age. But I just want to go back to something I think that gets in the way of success and has been a huge unlock for me is it I mean it's not but your fear your fear of criticism. If you're going to be successful you're going to face criticism. Starting a business is subjecting yourself to public failure. I want to go back to something you said about approaching women and guys being afraid to be that guy. I think some of that is a little bit exaggerated and that most women if you are respectful, the vast majority of women, if you are respectful and approach a woman at a bar, hi, how are you? And she's not interested, you're going to be fine and you're both going to be fine. And just as I think there's two myths that are damaging to the mating market, which is really upsetting to me. One, that men think that all women are looking to or a lot of women are looking to embarrass them and they might get cancelled professionally. If you're respectful to a woman and approach her and make her feel safe and then if she's not interested, politely exit, you're going to be fine and so is she, and I don't buy that your career, you're taking your career in your hands, I think that's just [ __ ] and an excuse to be an incel. I just don't buy it. And two, what really has been an enormous unlock for me is I believe in my atheism. I believe at some point I'm going to look into my kids' eyes and know our relationship is coming to an end. I was [ __ ] their age. You got a bunch of young dudes in here who look like former Abbercrombie and Fitch models. I remember they look like they're 25. They're probably 35. It was yesterday I was their age, which means just in an instant I'm going to be again at that moment where I know I don't have much time left. And in a 100 years, no one's going to give a [ __ ] what I said or thought or did or the mistakes I made. And embracing that and accepting that has given me so much courage, right, to start businesses, to make dumb investments that might be crazy, to tell to tell men in my life finally that I love them or I'm impressed with them. When I was their age, I had this weird sense of masculinity that if I said, "Oh, dude, look how handsome this dude is." That it took away from my prestige somehow that I couldn't tell people they were impressive. I couldn't tell a woman, "God, I'm just crazy about you and I'm I would give anything to spend more time with you because I was worried that she wouldn't return my affection and I would be just too hurt and I had to be cool and like not need her or not all this [ __ ] that got in the way of me really having a good life." And what I realized is every failure I've had, people go, "Oh, his business went bankrupt." Okay. And then they go back to thinking about themselves. So, everyone you're worried about really doesn't give a [ __ ] about you. And by the way, the dude that's not very good-looking and is with a ridiculously like high character hot woman is one of two things. Has rich parents or two or two is willing to endure rejection. So, I I just don't buy I you know that myth of the man risking his personal and professional reputation. I don't think that's true. On the other side, the myth I hate, I don't know if you've seen this on Tik Tok, a lot of women are saying, "I don't date because the risk of being unalived," which I guess is the woke version of saying murdered. I think it's cuz on social media platforms, if you say murder or suicide, oh, it goes ranked down. They I don't know if it actually does, but it's this idea that Yeah. that it's going to be uh ranked down. Here's the data. Okay. If 2500 women a year are murdered by men, that's way too many. It's a huge problem. Sexual assault is a bigger problem. The majority of women who are murdered are murdered by someone they know. So the reality is a small number of women are murdered on dates with strangers. It just doesn't happen that often. And 40,000 men a year kill themselves. So if you go on a date with a man, the man is 16 times more likely to go home and hurt himself than hurt you. So what I would say to men is make the approach, take the risk, and as long as you're respectful, you're going to be fine and so is she. and you are not taking your professional or personal reputation into your hands. And what I would say to women is if you go on a date with a guy that you met on an app, there's all sorts of digital breadcrumbs. And it's a lot you you are and I can statistically prove this. The ride over an Uber, the Uber was a lot more dangerous than the date itself. And you are more likely to die of choking during dinner than to be hurt by that man. So, what what I hate is that there's all this inflammatory content being boosted on online media that's getting in the way of the most rewarding thing in life, and that is to find someone who you are physically attracted to, who you sync up with spiritually, and you decide to build a life together. And not enough of that is happening. We're in a sex recession, right? And online is making it worse. The dating apps have an incentive in you finding a bigger, better deal. And the genders have done an amazing job of convincing each other it's the other's fault. And I think one of the big fosi that need to be really um pay more attention to is what I call renewal of alliances. I'd love to see a renewal of alliances between us and our great allies in Europe. Renewal of allies who are moderates. I know nothing about you. I just don't I just can't believe you're an extremist on the left or the right. I just don't. Bullseye. There needs to be a renewal of alliances between what I'll call moderate lefties like me and moderate conservatives that are everywhere. We're all Americans, but the most important alliance that needs re renewal is the greatest alliance in history, hands down, and it's the alliance between men and women. The integration of female and male energy, the ability to find someone you want to procreate with, to build something together, that is the most rewarding thing in life. And I can prove it's key to the species progress and existence. And men and women have been taught not to trust each other and to blame each other. I hate the [ __ ] manosphere and I hate the quite frankly some of the reactionary notion on the left where it's misandry cosplaying is social commentary. There's a lot of [ __ ] misandry online where you're assuming every young man is a predator and quite frankly that every billionaire is evil or that every white person is racist. But the alliance between men and women needs to be reformed. It's the greatest alliance in history. And online, it's teaching men to blame women for their problems. No. Women's as sense saved our ass. Women in the factory in World War II is the reason we won the war in four years, not in seven. Women going into the workforce in the 70s and 80s and protections of their rights for fair pay is the reason we're not a second tier power to China right now. If women hadn't ascended, we'd be really squarely and duly [ __ ] right? And their ascent is in no way inversely correlated or correlated to men's descent. Men have to stop that [ __ ] An immigrant didn't take your job. He made it such you could have lower rent, a meal for a reasonable price, and have someone take care of your mother when she's older. And at the same time, if you're having romantic problems, it's not her fault. Women are ascending and naturally they have higher standards because they're no longer economically dependent upon men, which should be a motivator for men to level up, not to start blaming women. And all this [ __ ] is being totally inflamed and taken totally out of proportion by online because it creates more attention. It's interesting. It's novel. And it creates more Nissan ads. But I I'm trying to figure out what is the economic incentive to try and figure out a way to get more men and women appreciating the other gender beyond just the basics, right? How do we renew that alliance? I love that statement. I saw somewhere of all places on X, you know, every once in a while you encounter something that really sticks with you. Every once in a while there's a gem that just falls through, really makes you think. And I don't know who this person was. This might have been an account with one follower and it landed in front of me and it said the way you destroy a society is to get the men and women to hate each other. And as a biologist first and foremost I thought, well that makes perfect sense, right? If you want to eradicate a a population of any species, you get the the males and the females to start hating each other. Not just because they don't mate, but because you throw off the mating dynamics in a way that then can create infighting among the males. We see that too. Infighting among the women. Although I don't know, I I think that there's a lot to explore around this sort of what the standard is that we're holding the opposite sex to. It's an interesting question. I I I can't say I've really evolved my thinking around this enough to to maybe dive into it, but I know you thought about this. I think a lot of males hide behind this notion that they have to be everything. They have to be tall. They have to be rich. They have to be jacked. They have to be kind. They have to be, you know, hopefully everyone's kind, but you know what I mean, that they uh they can't say the wrong thing even once, you know, so they're hiding behind that and if they go out and look, they'll get plenty of evidence for that, right? No men, no protectors, no this. Actually, I I brought I did something I rarely do. Um, which is I brought my phone into this because right before I came in here, a woman that I've known for 20 years wrote, asked me if I would ask you a question. No, and it's directly related to this. So, I'm gonna do this. Of course, I'm not gonna say who this person is. And she said, cuz I'd mentioned that I'm speaking to you today, and she said, "Please tell Scott that I'd personally like to thank him for his efforts encouraging men to embrace their duties as protectors, providers, and generally just being accountable because we have a serious shortage among hetereroudes." She lives in San Francisco, particularly in the Bay Area. And I said, "We'll do, but can you tell me what you mean by accountable?" Serious question. I want to make sure I'm specific. She said, "When I say accountability, I'm referring to the fact that many times in romantic relationships, men seem to want to avoid feelings of shame and guilt to such a degree that they often respond to their partner's feelings towards them without empathy or accountability. I find that here in okay, San Francisco, there are many women in San Francisco. I don't think I outed her here. Or perhaps all major US metros, chivalry is dead. Men are afraid to assert their desires because they don't want the obligation that it might entail." Interesting. They give up when something requires internal growth or leveling up. They shy away from acting protective of their partners in favor of egalitarian dynamics, which is flawed since men's clear since men clearly have more physical strength. Oh my god, this goes on and on. This is almost overwhelming me, but I think I'm, you know, can grapple with it. Oh, thank you. I swear I didn't plant this. She said, none of this has ever applied to you in case you're serious. Thank you for that one, by the way. She says they're wimpy. They avoid relationships that require work and responsibility because they don't want to feel inadequate. They avoid difficult conversations and repair because they don't want to feel shame or guilt. They avoid asking for anything explicitly because they don't want to feel obligated or complimenting a woman or giving her flowers or romance. They're all scared to do it. It's so odd. Anyway, that's it. That's all. Huh. Okay. So, I I'm reading I'm hearing that second part for the first time, the long part. And I have to say, if I were a 25-year-old guy now, I' like, whoa, right, that's a lot. Okay, there's something there. They want me to bring flowers, be romantic, be affectionate. Clearly, there's a there's a reference towards being sexually proactive there. And yet, assume responsibility, level up, be empathic. You know, I'm not trying to defend or or attack this person who's I'm close to in my life, but that's a lot. That's a that's a that's a tall building right there to scale for a guy who's trying to figure out how to work out three times a week, get off point. Anyway, I thought I'd share that and just get your reflections. I think that first off I think that we all have a set of insecurities around not living up mostly because again I I come I really do think big tech has had is is while it's a net good incredible economic growth job growth I connect with my buddies from college I get to build a business and market it less expensively I can break through voices that can bubble up just based on their talent Teen suicide has skyrocketed since social one on mobile. It's not the only reason, but it's either number one or number two. According to my colleague Jonathan Height and Gene Twangi at San Diego State, I don't believe there's any reason that anyone under the age of 16 should be on social media where they encouraged young girls are encouraged to sexualize themselves. If they start having suicidal ideiation, they are sent an email that says verbatim, here are some images on suicide we might we thought you might find interesting. But also, it's created unreasonable expectations for a lot of young men and young women about what they need to look like. If they haven't made millions of dollars, if they aren't on a private jet going to Coachella, if they don't have a boyfriend with a six-pack, if they if they don't look just amazing all the time, I think it creates tremendous anxiety and unreasonable expectations. But I do, you know, so I would argue that who's Okay, so who's at fault? We're at fault. in that as we keep hoping or waiting for the better angels of tech CEOs to show up. That's not going to happen. I've been working my whole life with CEOs, they're going to make incremental decisions to do whatever moves the stock price up. That's their job. That's capitalism. Their job is to take a set of resources, figure out an offering where they get more than they paid to garner those resources and create shareholder value. They will do anything to do that. That's their job. And then we're supposed to tax them such that we can build our roads, take care of our veterans, and have a set of laws so they don't get out of control. So that they don't lie and say, "No, smoking is not addictive." And then our mothers, our sisters, and our dads start dying, right? We have regulation. We are net beneficiaries from fossil fuels and pesticides, but we still have an EPA and an FDA. There's absolutely no regulation on big tech. There's more regulation in this mic than there is on big tech because they have weaponized Washington and money and Citizens United. There are more full-time lobbyists living in Washington DC working for Amazon, one company, than there are sitting US senators. So, they have very effectively avoided all regulation to the point where they basically run unfettered, whether it's bots, whether it's harm to children, whether it's letting bad actors try and influence elections. and they in my opinion if your content can be reverse engineered to self harm among teens. If your podcast if we could prove statistically that your podcast was resulting in self harm among teenage girls, this podcast would be shut down. You would be sued and you would eventually decide to go out of business. Yeah. Well, if we were harming people appropriately so I would argue big tech does that and more every day. And these cases that just came down actually one in LA that found Google liable. Do you realize that the New Mexico attorney general, do you know what he did in his case? He created an account posing as a 12-year-old girl and within minutes he was getting messages and solicitations from known sexual abusers. That was their first piece of evidence that if you create an account and you say you're a 12-year-old girl, within hours they were getting overtures from known sexual predators. So, the fact that this company can target you and know that you're that I'm wearing WBY Parkers and start serving me ads by looking at the screen or know that I'm at Coachella listening to David Burn and start serving me albums of David Burn's greatest hits, then they can figure out that a 12-year-old girl shouldn't be getting overtures from 55-year-old men. I'll bracket that sentence, right? very fair and very important statement that if there were some balance of optimization towards uh real protections that that is important but they made I think 11 billion last year from people under the age of 18 but you asked who's to blame we're to blame because we haven't elected people who are willing to hold these companies accountable and they are sole mission is to get reelected and in 97% of elections whoever raises the most money gets reelected and these companies are now the fastest growing expense line amongst big tech isn't AI as a percentage basis it isn't R&D isn't capex it's lobbying because the the greatest ROI in history is spending money on politicians I give money to politicians because I'm getting more politically active and it doesn't surprise me that they're [ __ ] the most disappointing thing is what cheap [ __ ] they are if I get $50,000 with a senator he'll have dinner with me when he's in New York or she because they have to because the system is set up such that elected and big tech has figured that out. So until we have the judgment to elect people who are willing to stand up to big tech and actually implement safe and common sense regulation, I don't want them to go out of business. Let our thoroughbreds run. I actually believe the the American model of less regulation versus more is one of the reasons we're much more successful than Europe, which hasn't grown in 20 years. But this has gotten to a point where we seem to have a total lack of regard for our children's well-being and the fact that Americans hate each other and that we're kind of eating ourselves from the inside out. So again, we need an EPA and an FDA or some sort of equivalent for big tech, especially with AI. But I want to acknowledge the point. None of this could have happened without fossil fuels. There is a trade-off here, right? Pesticides are important for our food safety, but there is an FDA. We have decided to just let big tech run unfettered. And I think it's been gotten to the point where it's pretty damaging for society. I think we've robbed kids. My kids are in the kill zone, 15 and 18. I think they've been robbed of a lot of their youth. I understand this [ __ ] And I have a son who has device addiction who will lie, take his phone, say he doesn't feel well, take his phone into the bathroom for 45 minutes, and I have to bang on the door and jokingly scream, "Start masturbating." Because this kid is addicted to Tik Tok. what the British did to the Chinese in terms of getting them addicted to opium. I think that the Chinese via poor uh via poorest platforms that are shareholder driven in the GRU are addicting our youth and we're going to raise a generation of civic nonprofit and military leaders who [ __ ] hate America. We are teaching kids to hate each other, hate America, hate every special interest group, hate every ideology that doesn't fit their own. And there's no grace around what it means now fortunate are we to be American. And I think at the center of it is a total lack of regulation amongst these incredibly brilliant companies. The most technologically sophisticated, deepest pocketed companies in the world are trying to sequester our youth from us and they're stealing youth. The number of kids who see their their friends every day has been cut in half the last 20 years. there. Men between the ages of 20 and 30 are spending less time outdoors, Andrew, than prison inmates. We are robbing youth because we refuse we refuse to um regulate these companies. So, do I want these companies to go away? Do I think they're bad people? No. But we have a system that values wealth and shareholder value above all. And so, tech CEOs and their boards will make a series of incremental decisions regardless of the the damage to the public. and we have a set of elected leaders that don't do their job and that is they're there to prevent a tragedy to the commons and it's Democrats and Republicans. So, it comes down to very boring [ __ ] Unless we reform Citizens United, unless we dejerrymander uh the United States Congress, money is going to win. And these companies have more money. But no, I would push back. I think these companies are starting to do a lot of damage to our youth. I'm worried my kids are going to grow up so used to getting dopa so easily and squeezing it so fast and this is your field that we're flushing into society a series of of young people who are so ready for addiction because they're so used to getting an automatic dopa by just flipping out their phone really fast. One thing that um I don't think I've emphasized enough on this podcast this and certainly not this but other episodes as well is um a kind of reframe around the dopamine and phones. I'm not trying to correct you here but I think it might be helpful for this discussion and for people listening to um we need to move our minds away from the idea that the phone is providing these dopamine hits because it's not. The behavior with social media, but phones generally is a lot more akin to true clinical grade obsessivecompulsive disorder. Colleagues of mine that work on obsessivempulsive disorder. I just want to give a shout out to the the pioneer of this field was a woman I I just adored, Judith Rapaort. She passed away recently. People can look up her obit. There's a really nice one in the times. Identified the brain structures associated with this thing that we call OCD, right? handashing, scratching, hair pulling, you know, all the variations of it. What defines obsessivecompulsive disorder is that the engagement in the behavior, the the compulsion doesn't relieve the obsession. So to call someone OCD because they need everything perfect, but then when it's perfect, they're like, "Okay, I can relax." That's not OCD. OCD is when you engage in a compulsive behavior over and over again, and all it does is serve to reinforce the obsession. That to me more closely mimics what I see in terms of phone use than the idea that it's like no way this amazing thing on the phone that comes every once in a while. But after you've spent a day or so on social media or on YouTube, we are all engaging in a much more passive slow degradation kind of way that I'm sure impacts the dopamine pathway. In fact, OCD is directly tied to the dopamine pathway. So, I'm not divorcing it from dopamine, but I think if we started to look at our relationship to the phone as more of an induced obsessive compulsive disorder than an addiction, I actually think that's one of the potential ways out. Not just con because words matter and concepts matter, but because I think in order to get out of that loop, you have to see yourself from the outside and you have to realize that you're being hijacked. I think right now there's just so much incentive for being on it, for being in the bathroom, you looking at the phone. Look, I'm not addicted to my phone, but I will tell you there are days when I feel like I pick up that thing even though I don't want to. And that's different than addiction. I know what addiction feels like. That's not addiction. That's happening just reflexively. People aren't even thinking about it. The lack of awareness is is just not there. So, you know, forgive me for going on this on this tangent, but as you're saying everything today, I'm trying to think solutions and and I I know Mark. I actually am am friendly with Mark. So, I think they care. I do think they care. I think they've created something so big that it's very hard to to navigate and keep up with shareholders and all this stuff. But I would love to see the world's relationship to their phones and social media change so that it is more in our individual control, more uh benevolent, but that's against their economic interest and they'll fight that tooth and nail. But I wonder I wonder if there is a way to incentivize that. Well, let's talk about that. So, I'm trying to think of solutions. Yeah. So, let's move to solutions. Um, one antitrust. I don't think I don't think Meta should have ever been allowed to buy Instagram. I think their ability, their scale of data suppresses any formidable competitor. Twothirds of all social media now goes to one company. And with a lack of competition, there's really no oxygen for a company that might say we're not going to allow 18-year-olds on here. Any content that's incendiary, anything that looks like it's been weaponized by bots or might be from a bad foreign actor, we're not going to allow it. I think there's a lot of parents and a lot of people that would like to be on that platform. The game's over. They've won. I I don't think Google should have been allowed to buy YouTube. And people say, "Well, they're great companies." If YouTube was divested from Google, the next day YouTube would decide to start a basic search algorithm and Google would start another video platform and we'd have two competitors and there'd be lower rents on labor and on advertisers. Competition is an amazing thing. These companies are a set of distinct monopolies that extract rents from labor, from the consumer, and from the well-being of America. So antitrust, Senator Clolobashar has done great work here. Basically, she says, "I'm overrun." She's like, "I got a staff of 60 people. There are 200 lawyers hired by Meta and Facebook who are doing nothing but getting in the way of anything to do with antitrust and giving money to people who will delay and obuscate anything around antitrust. do removal of section 230 for algorithmically elevated content. Their basic premise is we're not in the we're not a media company. We're just a platform. We're just putting stuff on a board. Well, okay. But if you decide this content gets more views, they elevate it. They make the decision to elevate it. And sometimes the content they elevate is not good for the mental health of America. It tears of the fabric of America. I think if you al algorithmically elevate content, you should be subject to the same liability as say Newscore. When News Corp and Fox told its on-air anchors to repeat a lie that they knew was a lie that Smartmatic voting machines had been weaponized by Ugo Chavez and they knew it was a lie and then Smartmatic sues them and says you caused us economic harm. They had to pay $750 million fine. What happened on Fox was a dumpster fire compared to the nuclear mushroom cloud of what happened on Facebook that day. But these naent platforms which in 1997 we were trying to give them running room. Those protections are in place for tech platforms that are not in place for media companies. So if you algorithmically elevate content, you are now a media company. You should be subject to the same liability as every other media company. And then finally three, agegate this [ __ ] The downside of Instagram and YouTube for 15 year olds is way greater than the upside. And people who say to me, "Scott, this is about parenting." That's a tell for they don't have kids. This is where they get their homework. And my colleague at NYU, Adam Alter, who also has an appointment at the psychology department, said when you take kids off of screens totally, it actually is more damaging to their mental health because they're ostracized from all social activity. So, and what's happened, the greatest uptick in school scores in recent history is when they do what my buddy Jonathan Hyde suggests do, these schools do, and they ban their phones. So, I think there are common sense solutions that keep a lot of the good stuff these companies do while recognizing, well, maybe a 14-year-old shouldn't be spending seven hours a day on Tik Tok or Instagram while his or her single mother is at work and can't police it. So, I think there are common sense solutions and a meeting of the minds here, but everything I propose, they will spend tens if not hundreds of millions of dollars to get in the way of and make sure it never happens again. I really appreciate your answer. I I like to think that they are listening, especially in the wake of these recent lawsuits um where they had to pay out, granted a drop in the ocean compared to their total revenue. But those were very public cases and maybe I'm overly optimistic. I I like to think that they care enough to pay attention. I mean, look, many of those guys, it's mostly guys running those companies. Now, YouTube used to be a woman, but now most all of them are run by guys. They have kids. I can guarantee their kids don't spend a ton of time on their phones that they're they send them to schools that are not allowed to be on screens, right? They're doing their job. We're not doing ours. I don't even kind of resent them. I think Mark Zuckerberg has been especially damaging, but they're doing their job. Capitalist society has to have for-profit companies that within the bounds of law make a lot of money. Look, you can't you can't have a navy. You can't have innovation. You can't have, you know, parks unless you have the tax revenue to support this [ __ ] So, we need our thoroughbreds to run. They're great companies, but there's basic common sense regulation that should be applied that they've managed to delay and opuscate and ensure it never happens to them. I'd like to take a quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, Function. Function provides over 160 advanced lab tests to give you a clear snapshot of your bodily health. This snapshot gives insights into your heart health, hormone health, autoimmune function, nutrient levels, and much more. They've also recently added access to advanced MRI and CT scans. Function not only provides testing of over 160 biomarkers key to your physical and mental health, it also analyzes these results and provides recommendations for improving your health from top doctors. For example, in a recent test with function, I learned that some of my blood lipids were slightly out of range. As a result, I decided to start supplementing with nattokinise, which can naturally help reduce LDL cholesterol. And it did. In a follow-up test, I could confirm that this strategy worked. My blood lipids are now back where I want them in range. Comprehensive lab testing of the sort that Function offers is so important for health. And while I've been doing it for years, it's always been overly complicated and expensive. But now with Function, it's extremely easy and affordable. To learn more, visit functionhealth.com/huberman and use the code hubman for a $50 credit towards your membership. Glad you mentioned the Navy. Recently, I w was invited out to the Naval Academy in Annapolis, and was had the privilege of giving a talk to 4,000 midshipmen, which includes both young men and women. It was an amazing experience. I'll tell you this, a guy who's been a guest on this podcast was the one that organized this. Coleman Ruiz has amazing life story. He's not particularly public facing, but amazing story um of his own life. Um and okay, so you go there and all these young men and women are of course in their, you know, cadet fatigues and going about they live two to a dorm room. Um they do PT, physical activity every morning at 5:00 a.m. Lunch was the most incredible experience. You walk into a dining hall with thousands of men and women. Tons of noise. A bell goes off. Everyone's quiet. Everyone sits down. A bell goes off. Everyone starts eating. 15 minutes later, bell goes off. Everyone stands up and walks out. Everyone has to play play a sport competitively. Everyone there is forbidden from using their phone most all of the day and night. One member of this dormer might be studying while their roommate is sleeping. Every single question was about how to be a better human being physically, mentally, emotionally. Um, and this visit was right in the like early days of the the recent uh war with Iran. So, they have a lot to worry about and they're very close to all these things. A young woman came up to me and told me that…

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