Cloudflare’s New CMO Jeff Samuels: Why Brand Wins, Marketers as Context Engineers

product empathy, technical empathy, understanding the technology, it it's it's really really important and I think a marketer who has that whatever they're marketing is is is pretty is pretty amazing. It's a good one. A biggest mistake tech companies make in positioning. Yeah. I think it's it's focusing on the how instead of the what or the or or the why, you know, the so what or the why, you know? It's like it's I think it's really important like the the Simon Synynic like understand the why element I believe in. And I think that's a big mistake. You're focusing on what's in front of you and and describing a capability instead of describing the outcome. Hello everyone and welcome to this week in net is the March the 20 2026 edition and this week we're going to talk about marketing from a technology perspective. over that have Clawflare's new chief marketing officer Jeff Samuels. So it won't be as technical as usual but definitely be interesting because it's all about how a technology company should see marketing. So it's a fresh perspective really. I'm your host Ronto based in Lisbon Portugal as usual. Before we go into the actual episode, two notes. One is we've been starting to publish this week some women call fair stories. We started with Sophia Kardittas. She's based in Lisbon here. She's an engineer, but she actually started as a clinical psychologist. So, a very interesting story. We published this as an individual episode. More more stories to come. So, stay tuned for those. And before the episode, second note, let's do a run through through the news. This one is a bit more general, but important for the AI infrastructure perspective. Nvidia pushed harder into the AI agents and inference story at their event GTC. So new new things appearing in terms of competing there. Quite interesting as well. And of course in terms of the Cloudfare stories, Calfare introduced custom regions for precision data control. So we're expanding regional services with new predefined regions and the launch of custom regions. So customers can now define precise geographical boundaries for data processing. So it's tailored to meet their compliance and performance needs. Another one, in this case more related to policy. So this is a blog post um that was written on Monday about standing up for the open internet. So why did we appeal Italy's privacy chill fine? So, Clothther is appealing a 14 million euro fine from Italian regulators over piracy shield, a system that forces providers to block content without oversight. So, Clare is challenging this framework to protect the internet from overblocking and lack of due process. Another blog of the week is announcing Cloudflare account abuse protection. So, this is to prevent fraudulent attacks from bots and humans. So blocking bots isn't enough anymore. Cluster's new fraud protection capabilities is now available in early access. So it helps you stop account abuse before it starts. So also a cool blog for you to read about. And now without further ado, here's my conversation with author's CMO Jeff Samuels. Hello Jeff. How are you? Hey, how you doing? It's so good to be here and with your audience. Uh like I've been looking forward to this. Thanks so much for having me. Thank you for being here and let's start where are you based for those who don't know. So I'm based in the San Francisco Bay area like just outside San Francisco the city about about 30 minutes from San Francisco headquarters uh in CL in in uh in San Francisco and you're with Cflair since 3 months now right? Yeah. Right on just hitting my 3month anniversary or so. So it's it's exciting. So I think we can get a lot from you in different perspectives. one of which is to get to know you specifically and for that I think it's it's relevant you have an amazing experience and background so can you run us through on where where did you grow up your background really yeah yeah yeah you know so I mean I was I was born and raised in the New York City New York area you know right outside of uh New York and uh then um in a suburb of New York and then went to college in New York City and lived in New York City for a little while and again that that being for early in my career there I think helped shape sort of like you know elements of of how I work and how I how I work with other people and the like. It was a really great experience. I also went overseas for uh for a couple years. I worked in the countries of Estonia. I worked in the country of Georgia. I worked in Israel um for a bit really you know shaping uh shaping the way I work in terms of working in other cultures and work other professionals and again just amazing to experience the world outside of you know again I didn't I didn't move much from where I grew up uh from the very beginning so it was a really awesome early part of my life actually those are countries especially Estonia and Israel very much so digital and very much so into tech for Sure. I'm not sure if you had a tech experience in those countries. Yeah. You know, so it was mostly again again this was now you know a couple decades ago but really working on the policy side of things you know which is also set the stage for you know solving problems at the business level as well but like working with in for NOS's or for for actually government organizations to actually try to impact you know the policy that was going on there. So it was like a great experience and some of it was setting the stage for so much of the the digital revolutions that happened you know early on in in especially in Estonia and how you know American American and European partnerships happen with with the country. So it was really exciting in the show we have many folks from our policy side legal side and that's really important that relationship between policy regulation technology always really important. Can you explain to us how did you start being interested in marketing being driven by that perspective? Yeah. So I started working at startups like so once I came back from you know the the international pursuits I started working at startups and so much of it was about just moving the ball forward like you know again when you're at a 20 person startup like functional responsibility is very blurred and I thought I think especially at an early age in my and early part of my career it gave me the opportunity to see everything and I was drawn to so much about what the function of marketing does and actually really the the product side as well. You know, again, product marketing is a is a big part of of the marketing function of companies. It's foundational, but like when I started in my career, there was no product marketing. There was product and product management and then there was marketing. And I was really drawn to the product side of the house early on. But you know, if we were looking at through the modern lens, it was probably the product marketing sides, like thinking about the customer, the market, you know, how you position technology the right way to make sure an outcome happens and um you know, it was like really that foundation of of putting customers at the center of everything and really trying to be the guide to the customer for what they need and what they know and what they don't know. So it was just a great experience being at that being at that part of my career and trying to do that which was which was uh really set me off on being sort of a marketing first practitioner and then ultimately a marketing first uh leader. Uh and in in those startups that you mentioned there's a lot of perspectives even on the internet side as well right can you give us a run through of those companies and what you learn in some of those? Yeah, you know, so I mean like um and and it's so relevant to Cloudflare in so many ways because if you think about the the product lines and and what what uh Cloudflare is amazing at I actually experiencing them at different individual companies. I mean Cloudflare is pretty amazing because it brings it all together on the you know the one of the largest global networks in the world and and provides uh that sort of operational excellence. Um, you know, I I'll I guess I'll start sort of like um and from from what I when I learned it when I was at OpenDNS, which was also a large missionritical network, but you know, I think the lessons at OpenDNS was that community and customer community is the ultimate differentiating moat. You know when you when you win the hearts and and minds of the people especially managing a network or the practitioners with the hands- on keyboards you know ultimately when the enterprise in every segment and it's like making sure that the product and actually how the product connects and the practitioner feels and and OpenDNS did that really really well um and it allowed us to actually expand in you know different verticals and different industries and ultimately moving up market um you know and then from open DNS I went to Cisco and I was uh I was head of marketing for their cyber practice for for the security so like you know and it was through the acquisition of of open DNS so I went from really relatively small smaller company you know a few hundred people to a company that has 100,000 people and I think overall and it was a great experience at Cisco I think Cisco taught me like I'm very much I I try to be a growth mindset champion as as much as possible and and I learned a lot at Cisco and I think Cisco taught me how to operate ationalize complexity in in a material way and also that like true scale requires a repeatable system approach to the market and that scale is what I've having gone from now from from Cisco to a startup and it's it translates you know all of these experiences at different size companies and even marketing and building different kinds of products translates to different uh to to different uh I'm curious on the small scale scale open DNS important in terms of DNS and even a precursor to zero trust I believe but then going to a very corporate large company what are the main takeaways lessons you took from the small scale and you took for to the larger scale but also that the small scale doesn't have and the the large scale needs what were were those I think Cisco and a lot of larger companies value sort of the the the this the the the grind in a sense of working at a startup and making sure you're driving towards specific goals. I think alignment at small at at startups at any sort of smaller organization is so clear and I think I was able to take that into a much larger organization and bring that focus on alignment in the right way and again the hustle and the grind of a startup which is really really important is again beneficial to all size companies but the combination of those two things sort of like the the the the ability to focus on what you want to achieve in a smaller company it's easier most of the time it's survival right you're trying to survive five. Listen, it's easy to get alignment when you're focusing there. How do you bring that level of alignment at, you know, a company of 100,000 people or like even this the security group was like probably about, you know, almost 10,000 people. How do you get that focus on outcome? And I was able to do that and help a great team at Cisco do that and I think uh you know, again, I think we all benefit from that. What's the main thing about thinking of marting from the technology company side that most people don't realize but they should? Is there a distinction in terms of marting working at a tech company may that be a startup or even a big one with the other marketing perspectives or not? Not not that much. You know I I think it's it is different but but there's things that I I think it it all comes down to being able to empathize with your audience, right? No matter what you are selling, marketing, positioning, you know, trying to convince, if you if you can empathize with your with your audience, with hopefully with an individual, you can start thinking about what you need to build from a product perspective, from a market perspective, from a messaging perspective, from a from an orchestration perspective. So when you when you go into to technology and I think it's really important that that all marketers especially really understand the technology really understand you know how it's being used how it was built and how ultimately a customer or practitioner is going to use it to get the specific outcome and I think that's like again um that technical empathy too to understand you know where things can go well where things can be optimized can allow for you know better planning better orchestration ultimately better delivery of what of what uh a company's trying to do. Makes sense. In terms of process, what came next for you were was sever several years? Yeah. At iterable, what can you say about that experience? Yeah, you know, so it is a customer engagement platform and um so I moved from from cyber and infrastructure on cloud and mission critical infrastructure to um selling uh selling and marketing and building an an application that marketers were using. And I had the opportunity to work with, you know, a thousand more than a thousand brands and some of the most iconic uh companies in the world. And I really learned the power of life cycle empathy. You know, I I I learned that the and it's sort of like the question you just sort of asked that the best marketing doesn't feel like you're being marketing or sold to. It's more like you're and the outcome that you're trying to get to is is like a perfectly timed solution to whatever that user's paying. And like our customers at Edible like span the world from from Price Line to Major League Baseball to Coinbase, you know, it was it was like really very agnostic on on who we were we were working with. But again, it all goes back to the question of like, you know, what what marketing does. It's all about connection. And I was able to really learn that by obviously building the product at Iterable and making sure that it it worked in these environments, but also seeing just incredible marketers do their job and and evolve especially through some pretty different times. You know, we was through COVID, you know, through the digital, you know, digital explosion then and then more recently on on h and how, you know, the market was changing. So really a great experience. But but you know each stop you know reinforced like a single truth that technology will change but the need for for you know trusted clear connection with customers always is constant like that's my personal you know true truth true true we're all humans and humans are at the helm at decisions so far even using AI to help for sure we're all humans and Martin also is driven by by that perspective as well of course what made you join Clawler Can you explain to us the process there and why Calfler? Yeah, so you know I'd say there's like three three main reasons you know and it all starts with the people and again whenever anyone's looking you know looking for a new stop on their journey you know you you obviously engage with the people and I think that's the most important thing. It's like I think it's a it's it's not a cliche to say it's all about the people. It has to be and I think during interview process I think we're all thinking about that and and you know I just got to know so many cloudflareians during the process you know I got to go to connect you know the global uh global conference in Vegas last October and just met not only cloudflareians but but also so many customers too and like you know the people the people are are very special and in terms of where that we're trying to take you know just an amazing mission and that goes the second And the mission of of Cloudflare is special and I was drawn to that purpose and it's it's not something it's been continuous that that Matthew and Michelle have put forth from the beginning of them founding this company and and it's unwavering and I was really drawn to that. I mean, working with purpose is really important and making sure that we're aligning all of the things that we do functionally to that is uh is is just inspiring and I was looking for that and I always have been, you know, like in in all the stops of my career, but this one is very special. And the last one after the people and the mission, you know, you have like the the opportunity, you know, it's it's it's, you know, I think for everyone who's been here for a long time, this is already a once in a generation company in in so many ways. But I I I really believe that, you know, we're on the path and it's not it's not necessarily ours to to lose, it's ours to win to be this iconic company and and I think that's that opportunity and that um that mission is something that I was drawn to and like again I want to drive towards that outcome. So very inspired by that. In what way joining Cloudflare now after three months you see like the priorities the things you the perspectives you bring to Cloudflare in terms of priorities what are those really you know it's a good question in a company like Cloudflare marketing must act as the architect you know that's that's the outcome like it's like again I'm very much focused on where do we want to go so we can build strategies and measure accordingly so you know it's marketing we want I think it's important at any tech company but especally cloud for that. We're the fulcrum of the architect of of the go to market. You know, we need to translate the this engineering brilliance into a narrative that the market can can digest and ultimately activate on and then and then orchestrate and execute the journeys across all the audience audiences again to achieve those specific aligned outcomes. Right? So this is sort of like how even when you were asking me about my other my other experiences these are very similar you know like of what you're trying to do like but our charter is distinct but we share so much with other teams of Cloudflare in terms of like measurement like sales like again making sure that we achieve our our customer and and revenue objectives is is extremely important from a product perspective like we are we are building campaigns we're building um activation that that needs to fulfill outcomes as well. So you know though that's really important I think from a positioning perspective our job in marketing is to is to bridge the gap I think between the how of what the code ultimately does and and the why of the business outcome you know I think and that goes back to like being that architect of the story. So um and Culfur is very well known for being a technical company even how it how it communicates the blog really technical the story lava lamp wall entropy coming from the research team actually also curious on your perspective because there's also this this way of long-term narrative even employer branding that's also important to hire and to bring awareness of the brand. How do you see those two alignments? Brand demand that balance. Yeah, I think I mean like again I think those are the the the the the you know the right hand the left hand in in so many ways. I think brand creates the momentum. Brand is the tailwind and demand provides the motion or the execution arm. They they're hand inand like again even if you look like you know for those listening who are more on the the you know analytical side it's sort of like when you look at conversion rates you know brand ultimately can can improve those if it's done the right way in terms of the awareness because you know having a having a high performing pipeline without a narrative that people believe in just there'll be there'll be a ceiling to that. I think brand lowers the cost of every lead we generate because it builds this like unfair advantage of being that default choice even before search begins. Ultimately buyers no matter what you're buying, you know, again on the personal side or professional side, you're going to go seek out information references and and a big part of of marketing that's been for for for a while now is making sure you're in those moments. So I think it's they really go hand inand and and and symbiotic in so many ways as as as for employee branding. You know, I think it's it's it's more relevant than ever, you know, in 2026. We're in an AI saturated world, you know, and and top talent doesn't necessarily want to work for a point solution. And this is where Cloudflare has this unfair advantage of being a major player across the internet policy and obviously this AI transformation that's happening in every single company. And so I think again just speaking for myself after a few months this is going to be a place where people want to be and we've got to make sure that we market it again to that audience uh just as effectively as we do to a practitioner. That makes sense. Makes total sense. In what way can we also understand a bit of the things that are coming specifically for example we have RSA the big conference about cyber security in San Francisco coming up and Cther usually is there what way these real world tools uh make sense uh these days still and are important yeah you know there's also there's also the connect you spoke about connect our big event that we had the main one last year in ve Vegas and this year It will be in San Francisco later the year. So events are still ongoing, right? Important 100%. I mean 100%. And I think there's an element of understanding an event, the before, the during, and after an event, you know, and I think digital and and the physical world comes together in a really brilliant world. But like I would say increasingly as as we're dominated by AI agents and AI marketing and digital noise, you know, the right kind of events can become, you know, such a high bandwidth signal of trust and that's really important, but it doesn't happen by accident. It's has to be very very intentional and what you what you mentioned like RSA, you know, I'm really excited to be there in San Francisco um in in in a in a week or so. Um, and it's really important to to to highlight and focus on our customers that are going to be there. Um, and again, the events that we have, we obviously are are are are going to make sure that we're meeting our audiences where they are even at an event like uh like like RSA and again highlighting so much we're doing with Cloudflare 1 and and how we're bringing to market our our sassy services. So, it's really exciting. But yes, going back to your question, like making sure the the experience at these events are in line with how we're engaging digitally is really important. It's sort of that continuous motion, but like again going back to connect too, just a great opportunity to bring our users, our customers, our analysts, partners together. It it's just it's a very special time and one that we have to do a lot of planning for to make sure that the experience matches the outcomes that we want. It's interesting and I've been around for a few years and it's always interesting to see how the teams actually build not only the stand a big stand very beautiful stand but also the experiences in terms of agenda in terms of panels in terms of gettogethers with analysts get togethers with partners discuss discussion discussion flowing and because it's San Francisco because it's a big conference RSA is going on very relevant people in the cyber security realm are around and customers. So, it's actually people are gathering already and you creating agenda, you creating things that people value is also important is always amazing to see an RSA event for for that purpose as well. Yeah, know 100%. It's like it's it is like you're saying such a rare opportunity where you have all of these, you know, important part of our community together in one place and they want to learn, right? Like they're coming there for a reason. They're coming there to sometimes it's very specific. I need to buy this kind of service. Sometimes it's I want to learn. I want to educate. I want to get certified. All of these things. And if you and when when you when we unpack our Cloudflare agenda, we are trying to meet the audience where they are, how they want to be, and also making sure that we're, you know, we're meeting the different segments of that audience the right way. So, that's well said. And that's that's what makes me really excited about these kind of events because it's such a concentrated few days of of being able to bring the Cloudflare narrative in the right way to the right people. Makes perfect sense. Another thing regarding these types of uh events is what are the metrics you usually are more engaged with more interesting in a marketing perspective? You know from from events or overall? From events. From events in general. Yeah. I mean like there but overall as well that's also yeah there's so there there's an element of an event that is a a specific marketing program right so you're really looking at you know first of all you start out with hopefully a broken record in this regard it's like what do you want to achieve right it's sort of like you know when you're talking about your own conference your own user conference like what is how many registrations do you want not just any registrations the right audience what's the mix of of partner prospect and customer there. And so you really put out there what you want to think and when from a from an analyst or from a PR perspective like how much do you want to be in those those um those discussions and we again for Cloudflare and RSA we have all of the above for these things and then obviously it's like you want to make sure there's a return on the investment because it's not only the dollars to do the sponsorships but it's it's the opportunity cost. you know we are focused here for the right reason because our audience you know and our audiences are here and we want to make sure that we are are making impact. So there's different ways we measure that in terms of obviously are people coming to what we're we're doing. We actually do the qualitative like when we do a session we we we ask you know again a survey on those sort of things which are which are really important especially when you start seeing over time how we're doing but ultimately you want to see that the outcome that we have is that they're they're appreciating what Cloudflare does um which is really important you know customer or not but also that they're starting to use our services so there's there's proof of concepts there's there's actually customers in the pipeline and again during RSA hopefully you know new customers will will will become part of the CloudFare family and all these things are measured in very specific and and quantitative ways which gets me really excited when you can see that purity of outcome so you can do better for the next event because again we have a connect event in London in April which I'm really excited to to be out in London and and see the cloud flareans out there but similarly it's it's a continuity of of of the journey we're bringing our customers on this makes sense another perspective here specifically specifically is and this wouldn't be a tech company if we didn't talked about AI. In what way is tech marketing also heading in the AI in agents era? Do you have like ways where the team is already using some tools that you want to share? Yeah. No, absolutely. I think we're embracing it from a uh a tech perspective in the way we we we're building our own technology to address some of the things that I mentioned here as well. But like overall we're entering a moment where you know marketing is it's a major shift like even just go before getting into actually the the the the tools which are a part of it but tools are a strategy doing the using the right tools to the outcome that we want to get to you know and so I think we're we're entering a moment where marketing is shifting from communications to orchestration right and like and that's been going on even before the recent you know couple of years of of intensity but Like because for the past you know 20 years marketing is has been about creating messaging distributing them across channels measuring measuring measuring the whole datadriven culture that started probably 20 years ago is like has made the way to the AI world we are right now. But like you know AI is changing that fundamentally you know as agents begin to participate in discovery research I mean and even purchasing you know the audience and the audience is no longer just humans all of these things change the way we as marketers need to act and um and and we're and we're evolving you know we're we're we're evolving from the way we create content and I think we're becoming context is a very much important part of of of marketing and and messaging and and being human actually like understanding context is even more important and there's a lot I think about in terms of marketers becoming context engineers you know the job is is and and there's been some great work written about this which which I really really admire but the job is no longer you know simply producing campaigns it's which is still part of it like there's no doubt but it's about structuring information it's looking at signals and data that are both people and AI systems and and both of them so they they can understand what Cloudflare does in that and so and I think marketing needs to be and will be more systemic and real time and I think and this is where it is like that's where the outcome we want and like the AI AI tools play a role in that the way we're going to be organized plays a role in that and ultimately the way we measure does that as well I mean I think the the it it like overall it's going to help us you know, personalize more, right? I mean, it's still that that that personalization has been, you know, I think overused for the past many, many, many years, but we're in a place right now where we really can get there. And I think it's partly about using the right tools, having the right people, training, and again, everyone, all of us have got to uh break through the inertia of of the last, you know, the last 10 years and making sure that we are we're learning. And I think that's the opportunity for for all of us. And I think ultimately like this will make you know marketers more strategic. You know, I I think when you can hand off some of the important execution work that we talked about in this conversation, you know, human work becomes more insight, narrative, judgment, understanding the market shifts, things that marketers are doing already, but like it allows them us to focus on that. And I think that's what makes this era very exciting, but very transform true. And the level of things we need to learn now is amazing. I'm learning every week with new tools, new possibilities is quite amazing to see. And in this show, we've had some of our experts about talking about security, using AI and agents, and we actually have our own set of tools that help us use the tools and be protected. May that be zero trust, the firewall for AI, things like that. So in a sense it's actually cool to be at Cloudflare and exploring some of these tools because we have the protections in place but things are evolving at such a fast pace that it's definitely a learning curve constantly in a sense. Yeah. Yeah. It's interesting like we're building tools with our engineering team like saying it on a daily basis is not exaggerating of how we're talking about how we're thinking about how we're engaging on how to improve those things. And um and again it it's just going to be more uh more tools for us to achieve the outcomes that we want which is really exciting and and everything like the simplest things obviously the whole like content and and and and and messaging I mean that that has been going on for a while now but just the ability to you know streamline so much of the process work that that marketers have to do um I think it's pretty exciting and yeah we're doing it at Cloudflare with Cloudflare which is very special. Absolutely. What to expect from the marketing front from Cloudflare in the next year or so? What are the things if we can give some highlights there? Yeah, I think I think it's it's all going to be about establishing Cloudflare as this essential platform for our customers in the AI transformation. the the AI transformation that we were just talking about within marketing that we're leveraging cloud for for like I think it's marketing's role responsibility along with the larger team at cloud for to make sure that customers partners view us and leverage us as this essential platform for transformation. It's not just a moment. It's this new era and and it demands us to be you know making sure our audiences know and experiencing uh and experience that from Cloudflare. So I think that's that's really important and that part of that is making sure the arch architectural shift is visible again and part of that you're going to start seeing that as we show up both digitally in the way we engage but also the events that we talked about and building that and I think it's a lot about you know building a found a found foundation of trust. I mean, I think that's one of one of the big core um what I see is the brand components of of Cloudflare. And I think that's really really important now when everyone's going through this transformation and they're looking for partners and increasingly they're they're seeking us out because of the the because of our network because of the different kinds of capabilities that we provide all in in one place and and they want us to be their partner in transformation. Partners want us to be their partners in transformation. And I think it's really important that from a marketing perspective, we are putting this out there. Is this where we want to be? And building our strategies accordingly. You know, I think, you know, from a like going back to what you asked about, you know, brand and demand, it's like it's taking that and like making that the force that creates the tailwind for everything. And then ultimately you know the way whether it's PLG motion with our workers platform or you know larger deals in enterprise segments it's like the demand can drive the execution so it's it's pretty it's pretty exciting interesting times for sure I have a fire round of shorter questions why not start most underrated marketing skill product empathy you know I think I think going back to what I said before it's like it's so important product empathy technical empathy understanding the technology It's it's really really important and I think a marketer who has that whatever their whatever their um whatever they're marketing is is is pretty is pretty amazing. It's a good one. A biggest mistake tech how instead of the what or the or the that I believe in. And I think that's a big mistake. You're focusing on what's in front of you and describing a outcome. Um, again, it's all about driving that why. I think it's that's how you're going to get, you know, brand love, you know, which we all want. Another brand or performance if you had to pick one. Yeah, I would say and I think it's this is I think it's in line with some of the questions you asked. I think it's got to be, you know, brand, you know, because that's going to be the foundation to make performance better. Brand ultimately creates the demand, you know. I think Cloudflare was born that way. It's like create a big product, amazing brand, and like had millions of of of customers come to us. I think that's that's definitely the the the answer. Brand one trend in marketing you're skeptical about, you know, and I'm trying to think about it even in this conversation now. I I think it's like there's an element of the I think we're going to get there, but it's this hyper hyper personalized like I said how personalization is an attribute of AI, but like I think we've got to be thoughtful about how you get there because ultimately the only way you get that level personalization personalization is having the data, right, which most companies don't have and then leveraging it and orchestrating it the right which is in a process and then being able to iterate on it going forward. And so like I'm skeptical of a lot like I want to want to you know verify verify verify but I think that's an element that like it's like again it's been going on for a long time. I think AI is going to make it go faster but we got to be really really thoughtful of uh and advice for young market marketeers entering tech. Yeah. I mean and that that advice is has changed I think in this AI world. I mean I think it's it's it's twofold. I think one is going back to the product empathy. It's learn the technology, learn what the customer wants, like drive that. But I think it's also become extremely fluent in all tools, especially on the AI side. Like experiment, build your own application to actually accomplish what you might buy a tool for, right? It's not to say there's a lot of great martekch out there, right? But like build it yourself, try it. And like especially if you're if you're early in your career and like and you're trying to to learn how to do something, try to build it because if you do that, you're just going to have such an advantage in any context that you're in. It's sort of like going back to what I said in the beginning. It's like working at a startup is like that. You're building, you know. So now everyone gets to be like again a startup CEO and like using some of this technology, a team of 10 or 20 people doing a lot of different things. Leverage that. Lean into it. If you don't know, you know, um um ask someone. I think that's another thing. raise your hand and ask someone. Everyone is is everyone there's so many people that want to help. So yeah, that's a very Calfarian thing like people helping out and even engineers explaining what things mean and that's really interesting. Last but not least, maybe you already spoke about this a bit but one word to describe Calfare's opportunity right now. Yeah, I mean it's generational. I think it's it's I think that's that's the opportunity and I think when you when I talk to so many people who have been here as you know few months like me or people that have been here for 14 or 15 years it's it's uh I think they people feel that and I think that's that's something that's very special here generation. That's a good good way to to to end. Thank you so much Jeff. This was great. Oh thank you and and and thank you for uh thank you for asking these great questions and again teaching me along the way. So appreciate you. Thank you. And that's a wrap.