irl from the jetbrains office (PHPverse after-party)

Ah, I'm gonna open the YouTube chat real quick. We live already. I think we are live, right? We live, baby. And 26 people already. What the heck? What the heck? Hey Jun, how you doing? Nice to see you, dude. Dabella as well. Okay, we are live on YouTube. Are we live on Twitch chat? That's a very important thing to keep in mind. Okay, I'm going to be honest with you, chat. Let me know if the sound is okay, if everything is just perfect. I am exhausted from the event. Like when I'm telling you exhausted is just literally dead from the brain at the minute. Let me know how the sound is, how everything is. Things should be good. Okay, what an office. Let's go. Okay, chef. So let me just give you like a small introduction to what we have here. Okay. So first of all for those who are paying attention we literally just went to the PHP verse. I was the host and right now we are going to do some sort of afterparty happening on Jet Brains office I guess and this is literally the place where they have food. Okay. So Jet Brains employees have food for free and this is the place where we get food, coffee, snacks, whatever. So in you know. Okay. How you doing Alexandra? Nice to see you. Amini what's up dude. KBR4264. What's up dude? Nice to see you. Nice to see you all. Shad. Thank you so much for coming today. Okay. So we are going to have guests on today's live stream. It will be fantastic. Okay. Will be fantastic. Perfect. Perfect. Perfect. Perfect. It's such a beautiful office though. Like I honestly I'm super fan of remote work but I would work here. My brother have been having food like crazy here in this office. Oh my god. Yo, how you doing? Welcome, welcome, welcome. Welcome to the mega chat. To the mega YouTube chat. What's up, chat? What do you guys thought about PHP verse? Just be honest with me. Be real. What do you thought about PHP verse? It was funny. It was exciting. What was the Noo-Noo that you guys would expect to see there? Cuz the feedback that I always get is that Noo-Noo on streams is a little bit crazy, but then it goes to these events and it gets like the formal Nuno. Now, something you guys need to keep in mind is that I cannot go crazy on this kind of events. Okay, so let me know what you thought about the event in general and if you liked it. I think it was awesome. I think it was a good one. So, yeah, such a nice place to drink coffee indeed. It's a beautiful place, I think. Um, well, to be fair, Jet Brain's office is like six floors in, six floors deep, and it's just huge. But yeah, the plan for tonight double event. Oh, yeah. What is PHP verse, dude? Are you sleeping? Literally PHP verse was an event about PHP with 2,600 people during 7 hours. How crazy that was. That's PHP verse. It was all over the place today. What is the setup you rocking today? Uh well, today is a in real life live stream. So that's the plan. We are going to stream the entire PHP Amsterdam event and hopefully it will be fun. I think PHP reverse was awesome. I think you meant PHP verse, right? But yeah, fantastic phobia and potentiary and others. I am behind. Wait, what? What do you mean you are behind? Oh, you are literally here on the office. Almost 50 people chat chat. Go all the way down, subscribe the channel and like the whatever, you know, super important. But yeah, the goal is we stream today from from an hour basically. So, one hour of streaming right now and then we are going to film the entire PHP Amsterdam event which will be holded here on JetBrin's office. There will be a Q&A with the PHP Foundation and everything. So, I think it'll be awesome. That's the plan we have today. Shad. Okay. Oh, that was a big day, man. Weather looks nice. He does. Well, a little bit windy though, but Amsterdam is quite nice, I must say. A little bit windy. It's sunny though. The problem about Amsterdam in general is just so expensive at the minute. Hello Jonathan. How you doing? Welcome to the live stream. Coco, how you doing, dude? This was any of you on PHP verse? Type W PHP verse if you were on the event today? I think it was a good one. So, people are coming, which is awesome. And um yeah, that's the the plan today basically. I need to find a way of just summarize all together the chat. If I tip five bucks, will you do 10 push puffs on a table? I don't think so. I think no one holds the cam. No, people hold the cam. He's my brother is holding the cam. He's awesome, by the way. Say W brother. Everyone typing W brother. Okay. No, it was awesome indeed. I love the event. Also love like how easy is to do an event when things are like properly organized. Um in PHP versus like it has it own setup with Jet Brains. Okay. I'm going to set I'm going to set a little bit because I'm literally exhausted at the minute. W brother indeed. It's all good. I know for the internet. Yeah. But there is basically something called stream connection, stream uh protection which is it just fixes all these cases basically. So we good. Nothing to be worried about. You can leave the camera here if you want. W brother D sent the following. Nuno, I changed the Twitch category. Should I pin the message that only YouTube chat will be used? No, I think like I think we can check Twitch chat as well. There's not many people on Twitch though. So, chat lag anyone? Yeah, there is like potentially a 20 seconds lag, but it's it's fine. chat. It's totally fine. Chat W brother. Oh yeah, baby. Let me try to open the Twitch chat. Do we have anyone on Twitch? We should have a few. But what do you guys want to talk about? Like there is literally a lot of people here. So we could potentially invite some people to come in. There is Dabel, Adrian, blah blah blah blah blah blah. Yeah, a few people. All right. I have both YouTube chat and YouTube and Twitch chat open. Which country Jet Brains is office on? This is Amsterdam. So, Netherlands. We flying tomorrow though. So, tomorrow I'm going to actually fly to Greece where I will be sleeping for an event on the next day. Call it Laval Greece. Okay, that's the goal. W brother says the operators, how you doing, dude? Saying the following. What is the setup I'm asking? I was asking about otherwise um looks like a drone or a T300. So this setup is quite simple is a gimbal and then there is like um a camera below a phone which just follows me naturally. Okay, my brother is just here in case I need to walk around and also like I kind of need to rest in the middle so he will be like recording the PHP Amsterdam event. That's the plan. Broki a follower coder w bro. Yo yeah baby. Okay for those of you who were on a event chat. I kind of want to know your feedback. What did you thought about PHP verse I was so surprising by seeing like some of the numbers 2,600 people were watching watching concurrently at some point. Do you know what it is like? 2,600 people watching concurrently content on YouTube. Just imagine like a conference with 2600 2,600 people just literally sit on the table. I think it's just a lot of people. It was not expecting that. So, I think the goal is like to come up with something like that again next year. Um, and you know, if I would if I would be invited again, I would obviously be here again. I think that's I think that's the goal. If it's happening again, I'm going to come again 100%. Chad, go all the way down. Click like on the live stream. Okay. I want to make this live stream one of the many that stays on the channel. And for that, I need like I need a bunch of likes. better than a massive conference. Yeah, I mean, well, definitely reaches out more people, that's for sure. Dell is saying, "Did you did you see my picture of Neils?" I have not seen your picture of Neils. I do know that my phone just literally went crazy for some reason. Holy [ __ ] What's happening here? Oh, here we go. We back, baby. Cobraai is back, baby. Here we go. Oh, it's Sabba. Thank you, dude. I appreciate. I also got makeup. I don't know if you guys can tell, probably not, but I got makeup for the very first time in my life. Operator is saying it was like 2 to 7 p.m. for me. Although, wish it took it completely off of uh indirect attendees. Yeah, I know. Raslac copy saying the following. Nuno, when do you when do you get the time to work on past v5? So, I worked a bunch on past v5 already. It's literally almost done already. So, shad, do you want to have someone from the PHP internals here with a little bit with us on the chat? What do you guys think? WP internals if you want to have someone. There's a bunch of people there, so maybe we can just interview a few. What do you guys think? Do you like Amsterdam? I do. I think I do. Yeah, Amsterdam is Well, it's expensive though, you know. But I do like Amsterdam. I wouldn't sp I wouldn't spend more than three days here though. D is saying I send it via Discord. Oh, nice. Okay. Yeah, Jabel. Twitch is quiet at the minute, but we need to pump those numbers up on Twitch a little bit. Okay. Potention merge generics. I want to see genetics on the core. What the [ __ ] is happening with my gimbal today? like literally just goes off rails out of no reason. There we go. I'm wondering if it's because this Here we go. Ask them for favorite PHP concept. We should do that. Okay, I'm gonna ask I'm gonna ask if the guy wants to be here. Wait a sec. Yo yo yo yo. So I managed to snatch someone from the PHP internals, my very good friend Larry. How you doing? Hi, having a good time. Okay, so Larry is from the PHP internals and actually way more important than you actually may think. How many features just name like top five features you have contributed to? Uh I was involved in enums uh asymmetric visibility property hooks pipe and asymmetric and um partial function application enums just that one is kind of enough to be awesome. So appreciate and thank you for that chat. By the way, type on the chat which one of them is your favorite. But yeah, I want to make you a few questions if you don't mind. Go for it. Okay. So, are you happy now with the pipe operator now with that partial function applications are coming? Yes. Uh I mean they were always intended to be a match set. There's the timing didn't quite work out to get them in the same version, right? But um they they were designed to go together. Um so I I'm good with where that ended up. I have some thoughts for the next step, but I don't know if people are going to want it now that we have those two. So, we'll we'll see what happens. Okay. And I think like most concerns that were What's up? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's okay. It sounds okay. Um yeah, I think like most of the concerns people have with the pipe operator was literally addressed now on the partial function application, which is awesome. People are saying hi to you by the way. Hello. So, yeah, Larry is part of the PHP internals. Many of the things you are using right now, he's just part of that. He built it. Literally built it. Um I designed it. Usually it's Ilia that built it. Well, you designed it, but now also like um you are part of it, right? Like many of the RFC have literally your name on it. Yeah. And um and one of the things I talked about in my talk earlier is that you can get involved even if you're not writing RFC's. And you know, a lot of the design of RFC's comes from the collective discussion, right? So if there's, you know, two or three names on an RFC, there's 10 other people who are involved in the discussion who had input into it and whose ideas ended up in it, right? Even if they're not technically part of the RFC team. So um I've contributed to in that sense a lot of other RFC's and an awful lot of people have contributed to the ones I've worked on too. So it's deliberately very collaborative. People on the are saying that enums is their favorite, which does not surprise me. Also a little bit of the match operator, which were you involved in the match operator? Uh that's one. No. uh Ilia did that one. I was involved in the discussion for it and helped shape it through discussion but I wasn't involved in actually implementing it. There is a question that historically you may have an answer for it which is who created traits? Oh, I don't actually remember who who did that. Um that was before I was paying attention to names. All right. All right. So when did you start with PHP? How long99? 1999. 1999 when PHP3 was still the new hotness. PHP3. That's That's like what? It was prior to namespaces. No, that was prior to classes, dude. Oh my god. We're talking about function. Functional PHP. I guess you had functions and and you had globals. You had registered globals. You didn't even have super globals yet. You had just globals. Wait, you have variable? It was variables though, right? variables, but you didn't, you know, the the way you got the get and post data was register globals. You didn't have dollar get and dollar post yet. That's how old I am. Oh my god. I started with PHP 5.6. I think young. Yeah, that was when PHP was already already like good. I guess I was happy with PHP back then. I was using like Zand and Code igniter. Shad, are you anyone familiar with Zand and Code Igniter? Someone is saying that oh yeah I had to use register globals. This is like this outdates me. What is register globals? So back in the bad old days uh the way you got information from uh a HTTP request was if you had a a get parameter named fu with a value of bar then you just had a glo a value a variable in your global namespace called fu that had a value of bar. This is a security nightmare. There's a reason why we got rid of it. Oh, it does not exist anymore. It It's been gone for 15 years. But there's a very good reason that we got rid of it. But back in 1999, that was the way you did it. And we are better off that that is no longer the way we did it. We did the question during the PHP verse event, but the chat is asking which is what is that feature that P you wish PHP had? It doesn't yet. I know the answer cuz I was on the PHP verse event, but so uh generics big one. W generic chat and as we uh discussed on at PHP verse I also would love to see interface default methods interface default methods chat does anyone at home knows what is interface default methods I I know what it is cuz I've used it on Rust basically however I want to know at the home if you guys know what is interface default methods and if you do what do you think about that now for those who don't know what is interface default methods what exactly that means for the average PHP developer interface default methods was an RFC a number of years ago that unfortunately did not pass. The idea is that when you define an interface, you can also define um you know instead of just declaring method signature, you declare the method body too, And then you use that interface somewhere and you get that method. You can overwrite it just like anything else, but it means you don't have to deal with uh class inheritance, but you still don't have a lot of boiler point. That would literally kill abstract classes. Uh would you foresee a reason for it? 99%. Right. Might not completely kill them, but it would certainly uh dig the grave. Dig the grave for abstract classes. I also don't like in general. So, people are calling you also a little bit old school. I think that's also it's okay. I guess it always kind of the interesting thing with me. I've been around a long time. I know a lot of the the history and so forth, but I also am trying to push things forward, right? So, like I've I've been around since old school, but I'm pushing the new school. That's always been my thing when I was working in Drupal when I was working Typo 3, working PHP. So, it's a interesting balance. All right, dude. Larry, thank you so much, dude. How you doing? Did you enjoy the conference? Yeah. Yeah, just a different kind of conference than I usually do. Um, but it was good. I The host sucked a little bit, right? But yeah, the hosts were okay. All right, dude. Thank you, man. This is probably the largest audience I've had for a talk. Um, there was 2,600 concurrent viewers at some point. Yeah, I think that's my large largest audience ever. 100% 100% that was crazy for me as well. Honestly, I have never Well, I had Lacon US is as big as that though. But unless you're doing a keynote, you don't have Unless you're doing a keynote, you don't have that entire audience to yourself. I've done like Drupal Cons where I've got several hundred people in a in a room, but there are several other rooms happening. People are saying if you use past uh No, no, no. We use PHP unit. Just straight PHP unit. Nice, nice, nice. Good stuff. All right, dude. See you around, man. Thank you. Take care. Yeah, dude. This is literally PHP internals right there. How would make sense to change inheritance pillar to composition? Well, you wouldn't use inance at all. Like you just use interfaces. That's it. Are they getting ready? I think I'm gonna ask real quick when this is starting, I guess. Hey, do you know when the event is starting? So, we announced that the doors will be open at 6:30. Oh, okay. So, this is like starting the mingle basically. Yes. Just mingle basically. Yeah. Are we getting food? What food is this? This is over there. Burgers. Oh, we have food already. I'm going to just go all in. We prefer the JVM. Sh. Should we go for food? I think we're going for food. Let's go for food. Let's go for food. So, this is the food. Are you guys ready? Just look at this beauty. He's a legend So, this is the entire food. Like, there is literally wine, beer, champagne, burgers apparently as well. Sheesh. Sheesh. Coffee again. Should we show the gaming the gaming the gaming part? Let's go. Let's go. Yeah, Larry is a legend, dude. All right, let's show the gaming situation here. So, at Jenbre's office, what we just saw is uh literally the canteen, but they also have like this chill place where they get a coffee and they are able to play games. So, maybe we just show you that. What do you guys think? Just follow me. Just follow me. Where is Brent? We are going to speak with him in a bit. Have your beer for us for the shadow. I will just look at this beauty. Not bad, huh? Not bad. Chat, what do you guys think? By the way, chat, we have close to 70 people already. So, make sure you subscribe the channel all the way down. This is Jet Brain's office. Yes, Jet Brain's office for the win. You guys want to see the view? So, this is like the the the the gaming station, let's call it that way. This is the view of the gaming station, which I think is like pretty dope. So, yesterday the interview with the composer creator was literally happening right here. Laravel office win. I have no idea. All right, Shad. Let's see if we can snatch some burgers because I'm starving. Maybe a beer as well. It is super cool indeed. So, we spend here all day. Basically, they're putting those licenses into a good use. I see the best office you ever seen. No. Well, no. Well, I've been in SF and SF that is also very good offices. Like very good offices. So, well, this is a good office though. You guys want to speak with Ashley a little bit? What is the GM? I have no idea. Of course, I was just telling all my friends. Can I snatch you? Yeah. Can I snatch you? Are you tired? If you tired, it's all right. I'm okay. How come everybody I hang out with you takes? Everybody I hang out with you takes. Yeah, I know, dude. But actually, they did a great talk. You too. Everyone get every everyone. No, everyone give a good talk. So, that was awesome. I'm going to go find a restaurant. Oh, yeah. I wish I could help you. When was the last time I worked from an office? That was a long time ago. Chad, I'm here with my very good friend. Don't give any secret stuff away. Have you been told yet? What? There's secret stuff on the screen. No, I asked if I if I can get sued by film here. The answer was no. Okay, you're safe. I'm just worried about you. I care about you. Yeah. So, W Ashley, by the way, I will have a question for you, Ashley. Oh, no. So, Sha, you said Shad GPT 5.5. Yeah. GPT 5.5x high in not cloud code. Not cloud code. By the way, let me know. Let me know if W sound by the way. Unless what? Unless you're doing UI. If you're doing UI, you need to use Opus 4.8. So you you pivot or you don't? Yeah. No, I do. I have to. Yeah, cuz GPT 5.5 sucks at UI. So you get into these horrible loops of it's ugly. Fix it. And then it's like I did it. It's perfect now. Like you [ __ ] It's still terrible. And so you have to go to Opus. So Cloud Code Opus 4.8. Oh, what number are they on? Okay, 4.8. Dude, the other day I spend like $300 in one morning with Cloud Code Opus 4.8. Hopefully Laravel is paying for that gap. Well, it is, but you cannot also like expend more in tokens than your actual salary at some point. Some companies are doing that. They shouldn't be, but Pushback is using Chat GPT 5.5 as well, which is awesome. By the way, he's a smart guy. So, I He is a smart guy indeed. Chad, let me know what are you using at the minute in terms of um coding agents. Your talk was a masterclass, dude. You should [ __ ] put that thing on the video course and sell it cuz it was very good. I was complaining earlier. I just got an email saying I need to renew my domain succeed.dev and that's where I was supposed to be doing my AI cohort based learning and I've not had time to do it and so it's just sat there and now I have to pay for the domain again like a loser. What is your PH your favorite PHP concept concept? Do you know I I think maybe they're talking about the features I don't know. I have a question for you though. You are super into AI. You move fast. Yeah, I have worked with you. I know that you move fast. You are very programmatic as well. Yeah. Do you see yourself keep using PHP forever? No. Uh not primarily forever. So I expect that I'll be using TypeScript for most things within the next 2 years. But I love PHP and Laravel. So I think that will always power websites. But fuel is Typescript and Electron and the CLI is Typescript. So not native PHP. No. So yeah, I the state of PHP survey that they're doing PHP foundation Japanese are doing that asked you questions like that. So I'm so interested to see the results because it asks you what languages are you using and do you expect to still use them? You think it will ask like are you using past or something else? I think they will. I think it does. Yeah. Uh people want to use fuel like how do they use fuel right now? You have to be me or be on the private alpha list. Private alpha list. You can go to fuel.build and join the wait the early access waiting list. And I'm letting select people in every other day, but it's bit very exclusive at the minute. There's very exclusive, huh? Exclusive stuff. Nice, nice, nice, nice. What else we have here? Uh cloth called Opus 4.7. That's old school, dude. Okay. That's old school. In terms of agentic workflows, you mentioned a few during your talk. Uh you mentioned you're using GPT 5.5 to build but also to execute. You were using another model which is for actual building. Yeah. So I'm using Kim K 2.6. It is cheaper though. Kim K 2.6 is Yeah. Yeah. How much cheaper it is? 20 times cheaper than GPT 5.5. 20 times cheaper. Jesus Christ. Yeah. It's ludicrous. Ludge cheaper models like Miniax M3 crazy cheap but not very good. So people were like are making a lot of questions. Great to meet you. Hey, how you doing? Nice to meet you and Nuno. A lot of questions regarding like G hooks parallel agents. It's kind of fun which is exactly what we have answered during your talk. Do you want to try snatcher burger? I I want brisket. Were you here for lunch? Dude, I haven't had food since the morning. You amateur. I'm like starving at the second. At lunch there were big slabs of brisket and it was delectable. Delightful. Delicious. Should we ask if this is like open for open already or? It's open. Well, it's right there. I'm going to ask. Grab it. No, no, no. I'm going to ask. Hello. Is the food already open for Definitely is. It definitely is. All right. All right. I'm going to make a break from the shed. I'm going to just snatch a burger. You going to eat the burger on the screen? Yes, sir. Is that a good idea? I think that's a good idea. I just think people will screenshot it. I was thinking about grabbing one burger, but I think I'm going to grab two burgers on stream. You know what I mean? Camera man allowed to eat. Yes, it is. Yeah, we're going to We are going to pause the Do you have food already? Not dinner though. Oh, yeah. I think I'm going to do a burger and potentially a diet coke if there's any. I saw the um Maybe I'll go for a pizza. You sit on the couch and chat [ __ ] All right. Pizza burger. They had a load of people and a diet coke right there. But I don't know. So [ __ ] the plan is that we just mingle a little bit with people and then you guys are going to watch the entire PHP event. Okay, that's the goal. That's the goal, I think. How you feeling? Good. Pretty good. We're just going to sit somewhere here and chill. Chill. Are you still live stream a little bit? Yeah. You want to grab food? Just leave the camera there. Just put it here. One thing that happens, I don't know why, it just gets crazy. Like it just stops um being on position for some reason. All right, Sh. My brother is grabbing food at the second. 65 people I knew you guys would love in real live stream. That's awesome. I think he left Latavl for his startup. Oh, you mean Ashley? Yeah, he started to pursue pursue his own dreams basically, which is fine. You know what I mean? Hi from Greece. I will be there literally in two days. I activated the AI searching. Is that okay? Is it pointed in the right direction though? Seems that way though. Is that Is that good? Nice. What are those burgers? Oh, let me try to show you. I don't even know, honestly. They look good, though. What do you think? I think they're good. They look good. Don't forget to share a little part of your food. What do you mean? Can someone check YouTube guidelines for alcohol? So, I'm streaming on Twitch X in YouTube. Can you guys just Google if we are allowed to have a drink on stream? Your bro is not eating. Literally, just put the camera down to grab some food for him. Yeah. So Ashley's not the clav anymore. By the way, shet, insanely important that you guys go to the blog of the PHP Foundation and you literally just fill the survey in. Okay. Push back is say you can did you actually search for it or you just ask cloud code? Just be honest. Push back. You went to Shachi PT and you just asked that. All right. Trying to time to try this burger. I'm not going to have the tomato. or to make you feel bad. Is that Jet Brain's main office? Yeah, I think it is. I guess because I saw earlier some streams doing it. Yeah, that's the thing. Like I don't know what happens with the stream if you just show alcohol on stream, you know. That's so good. I'm going to a thousand% have another burger. Here's my brother. You should show on camera, dude. Come on. W brother. Everyone typing W brother to know my brother. Come on. No, you just go eat there. Come on. So, if you guys want me to interview my brother, just make your questions. My brother is English. He's not as good as mine, but he's getting there. W brother everyone. You see, did Laval send you there? Well, not exactly, but they allow me to be here. Yeah. We need him next time in Goa. So Lakon India next year. He's coming. Yeah. He's coming next year to Lacon India. Well, he came last year, but unfortunately something happened in Portugal and he had to go back literally in the same day. Yeah. You slept, I think, overnight. No, just one day in India. 24 hours, right? Okay, these questions to you. Okay, one question for my brother. How is growing up with Nuno? Was his energy wise like this? Be honest. Most of the time, no. He's a quiet and calm guy. The burger is so good. Mhm. You just got one. I'm going to grab another one, I think. What is that? Oh, sparkling butter. Mhm. Chad, don't forget, go all the way down, subscribe to the channel, and click on the like button. Okay. So, we planning on streaming in Greece, the Laravel Greece event as well, which will be awesome. What is your brother's name? Yeah. Do your brother codes too? No. Well, maybe like in civil engineering there is some sort of code. Not web apps though, but ever. Is it real life? This is real life. Shad, I'm going to leave you with my brother while I will just grab another I'm going to say what if nobody like another environment. Maybe other the speed. The full people are saying going nuts. So this is a veggie one and um a meat one. Hello brothers. No, no, brother. Do you guys stay quiet all the time? Gabel, how you doing? You got to interact with the chat, huh? Otherwise, they leave. Huh? No good. Yeah. My brother's name is very difficult to pronounce. It's basically Rui. Rui. Only Portuguese people can do Do you want any of this? No. It is a veggie one though, which is a problem. All right, I'm going to start with the veggie, which is the worst one, and then I'm going to go with the real one. M the following. Hi, Nuna. I watch your videos often. How did you get into programming? It's a very good question. So I went to actually um software at a university, you know, let's call it uh computer science at university, but I was actually getting there without knowing what I was assigning myself for. But I end up liking it. So that's the real story. I'm getting hungry after watching all those burgers. Dude, there is a one left over, so you can have it. They're very good though. We done with the food. No more food. What happened to view? What do you mean? Maybe you can invite me next time to help with streams. You can come. By the way, I'm having three burgers cuz I literally didn't have any food. You had food at lunch. You have maybe like um you had food like in dur in the afternoon as well. So good. Oh so we have flight tomorrow at 12. We need to wake up at 8:30. W brother Po, how you Shout out to Java. No thanks. Hey Dell just shared the link to the survey of PHP of Jet Brains. Develing that on YouTube as well. You missed the PHP verse live stream. Oh no. Dude, you missed so much. Dude, are you streaming this? Oh, come streaming everything. Mhm. Do you guys know Roman? By the way, Shad, let's try something. I'm going to leave the microphone right here. You guys let me know if you can hear anything. Okay. If you stop listening, let me know. How you doing? Doing great. Doing great. I think it was really nice. Uh I'm I'm having so much food, dude. Yeah. I'm going all in on burgers and 60 people are watching having burgers like crazy. Hi Roman. Hi Roman. They know you. Oh cool. Okay. One question for you. What do you thought about Peach Pverse? Um yeah, I think it was great. I had I was um um I was worried if we can get good numbers and if people like the talks and everything. Did we hit the record from last year? like did we top last year in terms of a little bit? Yeah. So, we had the 2600 um online like concurrent viewers in peak and last year I think we made 2500. so by 100 basically yeah by 100 but I think it's great result. People are asking like cuz some of them missed the live stream so how can they watch it? Oh, it's on the Peach YouTube channel, right? No, I think so. Uh Brent, um hide it. Hit it because uh we what we want to do is we want to uh split the Just by the way, type W sound if you can hear everything. Okay. What does this W thing means? I'm I'm sorry. I'm Wait, what? I'm I'm sorry. You don't know? No. Tell Tell me, chef. Does just tell me something. Does anyone does not know what the W thing means? You have no idea. No, you never seen W's, Fs, or L's on streams. Maybe I did and I I just didn't know what it means. Anyway, tell me. I'm so old. All right. So, on the live streaming culture, yeah, there is quick ways of saying if something is like a thumbs up or a thumbs down. Thumbs up is W. Okay. Okay. So if you're saying for example imagine that you did something fantastic in like a good a good thing W groom. If PHP is good W PHP. But imagine if someone comes here and says like oh JavaScript is awesome. People will say well l JavaScript. Cuz it's a loss. Okay. Oh win and loss. Okay. So, but this also like which is probably my favorite, which is when the live stream goes off rails is the F. So, if people start stop listening to it because the audio goes crazy or because I don't know um the audio stops working or the music stop working, they will just type F. And I know instantly something is on. And it stands for for example. For example, I'm going to say something like this. How is the sound chat? Is it sound okay? What would you type? W sound. See, I'm digging it. Nice. Yeah. So, that's that's the goal. Yeah. So, I think the stream was epic user group. There's so many people. What do you think? Did you enjoy it? Yeah. What's the plan tonight though? Are we going like nuts? Nuts? You're crazy. You're on stream though. You're on stream though. So don't tell like exactly what are we doing? But partying machine. I mean we deserve We could go do something though. Go for a few drinks potentially. Do you know something here? Close by though cuz I'm, you know, tired. Close by. What do you do often? What do you do often here? Not in this area, but uh we can find something. There's a like a bar or something. Like for dancing or or like for drinks. But dancing. Yes, sir. For dancing, chat. Let's dance. No. Well, I mean, for dancing there, we need to go to to the closer to the city center. But uh for drinks, we have plenty of bars here. Plenty of bars. Okay. So, we'll we'll find something. Please ask him when they plan to add stable support for Podman in PHP Storm. What is Podman even? I don't know. What is Pman? What is Podman? Chad, great shirt, Roman. HP this PHP that. Oh yeah. W crazy. Oh yes, baby. What is Podman? Yeah, what is Pman chat? What is Pman? This is like Docker thingy. I have no idea. What time does it start? Do you know? It's like uh 7:15. So like in 15 minutes you maybe we set up the scenario if you still have a table. Do you want to go check? PHPtorm has its own curl client. Wait, what? Wait, wait, wait. Podman is a Docker alternative people are saying. Docker uses a centralized demon process requiring root privileges while Podman runs in a demonless with rootless containers by default. And uh what do they mean by support? Like what do what Yeah. What what do you mean by support Chad? Like being able to run to set interpreters maybe. Yeah. Chad, is the audio being captured? Like can you guys actually listen Roman correctly? Listen myself correctly though. It really works good. But generally curious if the audio is okay. Oh my god. Is Brian having a different burger? This is a very strong im right here. I'm going to try to have Bran on stream. Roman. Keep them occupied a little bit. That was a close one. Hey Chad, we hear him. Nuna, you tried going. Oh, so you mean uh setting up remotes interpreter via Podman. I need to check. I'm I'm I'm not aware what how it works. Yes, I'm the new streamer, Roman. I don't know how to do this. So, Oh, thank you. Thank you. They saying W Roman pre W Roman. So, Roman just learned what means W. What? What means is so many millions. So old, dude. Is this not enjoyable content? This is like ASMR content. Like I love see people eating honestly. So nice shirt. Yes sir. Take the phone and camera and run Roman. Oh my god. Where have we ended up Roman? I'm not sure. What is your favorite talk though? That's a good question. Um I really like uh I think I really like Jeffrey's talk. I mean he's just the quality wise and just the how he delivers it. It's great. I wish he was uh here in the office. Yeah, maybe next year or something. And uh uh what else? Jeff is so good. My favorite teacher W. Jeffrey, everyone chat. I think composer was a really nice uh symphony talk was also good one and um Lar's talk was entertaining. Yeah, I I liked it because it was like deep, you know? I I like deep topics. put the mic more in the middle. Okay. Well, here we go. I'm going to put the mic on top of the Coca-Cola. Here we go. Is that good? Can you ask Larry what is the odds that pattern matching RFC gets approved? You didn't got approved already. No, I think it's No, it's not. It's uh I think they they haven't put it on to the voting yet. So, uh as soon as it gets to water, I'm pretty sure they pass. Oh, good question. How people can apply to PHP verse as a speakers? Not we we we pick speakers. This is like a Yeah, I'm sorry. They handp pick speakers. Yeah. Although maybe for next year we can do a call for papers. Yeah. But yeah, we can do I'm not I'm not making any judgment calls here. But um and just like my vision at least for PHP verse is that Yeah. Can you can you hear me? No, the people can hear. Yeah. My vision is that the event should flow right and it should tell a kind of a story as a whole. Uhhuh. And so yeah, I like to handp pick the actually I contact speakers and I tell them I want you to talk about this specifically, right? Because if you want to have like WordPress, Drupal, Peach internals, Laravel, AI, blah blah blah. If you want to have like all these topics and plus you want to open like open call for speakers, it will be really impossible. That being said, maybe it's not a bad idea. I just think like people who submit should be realistic about it that right like we yeah you know it's it's not like a free ticket or anything. I think what what I would suggest doing next time is uh rehearsing talks with uh the speakers and uh like giving them feedback beforehand and maybe saying like hey this is missing maybe you could add this thing and this thing to like help and make the topics and slides better more and maybe it's a good point. good idea. Yeah. So we doing the Noo-Noo branch stream for two days or what? Yes. So Shad, here's where I proposed to Jet Brains. I told him this. I will fly here with my brother. You You guys cover my expenses and I will be streaming building an app in 48 hours. What do What do you guys think? This is a great idea. Don't you guys think? You said maybe. Yeah, I said maybe. Yeah, you said maybe. Brent said yes. But well, hang on a second. Um I don't know if I'm up to for doing that like 48 hours, right? But I am. you can come up, you know, for one or two times, you know, you don't have to be here like for the four for two days straight. Whether it's it's here in the Jet Brains office or in another setting, I'm not sure about yet. I mean, we cannot decide that right here on the spot. You understand? But um but I I think it's an idea worth trying out. But I I'm just saying I don't know if I can go for like that long cuz that studio, dude, I would sleep there. I can't imagine with a stream already like noo building an app or I sh I'm too tired I'm gonna have to sleep like a couch where I can have a sleep you know just filming then I order rub eats on stream as well the guy is coming like with a with a backpack you know deliver the food it'll be so good pillows provided build it with tempest and brand will be there 100% build it you see everyone wants this l it will be so fun we need to make it happen wait we actually sleep there and like I think would generate engagement like would be new like a developer is building an app on stream and he's sleeping on the couch and getting filmed while sleeping. This will be like so so new like you know fine would be I don't know I mean if you're comfortable with it and and if Jet Brains is okay with it. Yeah, that's the that's the real question, right? Is Jet Brains about having a lunatic that wants to sleep on stream? What's this dude doing here in the middle of the night when the security crew is doing their rounds? I don't What is the most programming languages we have used in the single project? That's a good question. JavaScript and PHP, I guess. CSS, HTML. H CSS, HTML. Yeah. Python as well like in the same project. Why would you Oh, like machine learning. No, no, no. It was before the AI stuff. It was uh honestly I don't remember even like what was their decision uh to have Python there, but I think it was made before I joined the project, but it was a part of the service uh was written in Python and the API was written in PHP and then there was Angular front end so bad. It was it was interesting. It was I really enjoyed that project actually. Oh, Adrian, you're here. Look at this pet programming. Nuno sleeps while the other codes. Dude, this is so good. Oh, dude. We need to make this so happen. And then you go to the bar and you And then we just Slowly but surely, this channel is just transforming into your live vlog channel. Uh but the thing is Nuno, I don't know if you feel the same about this, but when whenever I do live streaming and coding, it's I find it so much more difficult to focus on the code itself. Oh yeah, it's mainly chat. You have No, you don't code. Like you just check. No, but yeah, but if you want to do something like I'm sitting here 48 hours and at the end of the second day, you're like, uh yeah, okay, we have a a registration form. That's not No, I think like yeah, I would have to focus somehow, you know. I would have to 100% sure focus. This is starting at 710. You said 7? Yeah, 7. So, you may have set up things there. All right, Sh. We are going to set up all the stream for say bye to people. Bye-bye. All right. So, I think the plan is setting up the stream for the event. So, let's do that. Let's do that. Hello. Do you know who is here? What do you want? I would love this part to actually set up the camera, but I don't know what this is. Maybe it's food. Well, I guess it's food, but like just simply take it off and if they come back like we do like this. What is this? This is I don't know. Oh, do you mind if we take his place? Are you Are you here? Are you sure? Thank you. Oh, hey buddy. How you doing? Uh, we actually like I'm going to stream the entire event. You can stay there, but you might appear on camera, but I don't. It's up to you. Um, maybe it's better. Are you Are you fine with that? I appreciate it. Thank you. Are you Are we going to use this microphone for the event or a new one? This one is full though. No. Yeah. Let's try the the the other one then. I'm going to go off stream though. Like I literally want to have a beer. Roman is cool. Yeah, he is not. He is very good. Very nice. So, I think like you set up the microphone, you put it on the new the other one. And while I'm going to stay here a little bit, so yeah, I think we should just do it It's okay. You just put the microphone there already. You set up the microphone with the beam gimbal. Hey, you going? See you next time, dude. What is the presentation about? So we are going to see PHP Amsterdam I think which is um a meetup and the presentation is about the PHP foundation I think in your mouth. My neck is Hey, you're actually in the hand. Yeah. Uh yeah, I mean I don't mind. How many people will be there? Both connect. Yeah, I don't mind. Yeah, but they want me. Do you want me to go there? I mean, you were announced. So Yeah, you were. They announced you as a completely Okay, this one it is, but not the other one. Yeah. 3, two, one, go. It's connected. The other is connected. Yep. So I just put on a microphone and now I noticed that you want to have me on the on the panel. Yeah. No, no. Do you want to have more than welcome if you join? All right. Okay. But uh then I will check Elizabeth and Ashley is not here and Jonathan isn't here either. Who is not here? So it's just a list of meet up and I will check with Elizabeth. Yeah. Cool. All right. So, this is the microphone that you are going to use. Yeah. Perfect. All right. So, this is like already miked up and Yeah. For the panelist. Yeah. Yeah. Is that okay? Including you. Yeah. Yes. All right. Cool. Perfect. Just put here. This is set up already. So So no one off. It's on. Yeah. This is on. This is on. This one I don't know. But this one is on. All right. Cool. When are we starting by the way? In 5 minutes. Yeah. 7:30. Oh, 7:30. So, in 20 minutes. In 20 minutes, right? In 20 minutes. he's brewing the panel. Well, apparently I just found out that. So, I'm going to go on PHP Amsterdam. Mic back. Yeah, the mic was We were trying to connect the microphone. Now it's working as expected. So Chad, I have a question for you all. Does any of you have been in Amsterdam before or not yet? This is my fifth time in Amsterdam. I think I've been there here so many times. Now it's fine. Like I'm comfortable on being on meetups like this. I don't know what is the questions about though. I have no idea what the topic's about. multiple times. Yeah, me too. Yeah, that's fine. I'm going to ask what is the panel about though? Hey buddy, what is the panel about tonight's speakers. I'm literally there. I didn't even know. What is this panel about? Just PHP in general. PHP in general. It's a quick introduction on the road and then we just random questions people just I'm in. Yeah, let's do it. I think I'm going to grab a beer. I'm going to grab a beer real quick. All right, Shad. We grabbing a beer real real quick. Just like easy. Oh, here we go. Just small icon real You think everyone here? Holy [ __ ] Need a beer for the talk. Oh no, dude. I've been working my ass off since the since what 10:00 a.m. I think. So Shad, tell me something. Do you guys enjoy the in real life format? I love it. Honestly, I think like it's just the future. I'm going to tell you why. Like right now we are do I'm doing a lot of videos uh to the YouTube channel and in terms of numbers they're doing fine. However, I think at some point just in general videos they will be so easy to generate that only in real life content will matter basically you know cuz people will be just so tired of generated content that's the only thing will give them some pleasure is in real life content. What do you think? All right. going to note every single opinion of you guys. Lena is say 44 48 hours stream building core PHP extension would be cool. Dude, I don't I have I have no experience with um PHP core code basically. You know, I mean I can do basic C but that's it. I prefer authentic videos. Can you elaborate on that one? The multimic system would be nice for guests. So, we actually have a multimic system. So, there's a microphone connected with there is a DJI mic connected with the other microphone and I have the other microphone on me. Authentic no AI. Exactly. Operators is saying the following. Place three fingers between your face and camera so we can be sure that it's no generated content. What do you mean, Thanks, Mike. My [ __ ] is so crazy. The the other dude was saying, um, give you five bucks on tip if you do 10 push-ups. That's AI generated content. 100% sure. So shed, I think we're doing a a Q&A with a couple of people. So I saw Larry Garfield from the PHP internals. I saw Elizabeth from the PHP Foundation. So it is me. It is Ashley, which is super into AI. I like this kind of prim vibes with meetups. Yeah, me too. So that's the goal. I was not ready to go on a panel though, but I guess it's happening. You done with food today? No more food? This better be an authentic presentation. $10 for 10 push-ups on the panel. Dude, if you give me a million dollars, I will do it. $1 million, I will do it. Otherwise, I won't. My brother My brother would sing if you if you give him $1 million. 500K. I would still do it. 500K. What is your minimal bare minimum money to go there and just dance? Chen, get ready. Get ready for the tip. Just dance. Go there and dance in front of everyone. Uh, for 30 seconds. 5005 $5,000. Do it for the chef. No, it's not happening. Also like in real life, dude. I have never seen a good AI generated video. So only the ones that went to the past It's not a presentation, dude. It's like a Q&A. I think I think it's starting right now cuz everyone is like getting quiet. Yes, I see you. Have fun playing football, dude. Very correct. Thank you. Sorry. The worst day. No, no, no. PHP vers is over. This is PHP Amsterdam, which I will be on a panel. Just found out like literally 5 minutes ago. It's fine. Welcome to one of the special episodes of Amsterdam PHP which is the same day as PHP's birthday. I don't know where. Should I try mic? Hey, let me know if you can hear him right. So, he has a microphone. We should be a You guys should be able to hear him right, but let me know. Tap W sound if the sound is okay. The music once he starts speaking though. Sorry, I'm the music coming from. So he's connected to Sound is good. Yeah. But let me know if it is sound is So one one more time for yourself. So tonight is happening with the help of Jet Brains with this fancy office. So I would like to invite uh Roman from Jet Brains to tell us something about uh the company itself. Um I'm pretty sure you you all know Jet Brains. We do PHP Storm ID and uh thanks for coming. Uh we're very excited and uh today uh we did PHP verse uh our PHP conference. uh if you haven't watched it uh live during stream there will be recordings please uh go and I think most important actually thing I want to mention is today we um in partnership with the PHP Foundation we started the first ever official PHP survey so please go and uh yeah take it and uh because it's really important for the PHP community your voice what you think about it and that will actually influence how the PHP will evolve. So, uh please do that right after the event and uh let's have fun. Let's invite our um guests, our panelists, our PHP community folks and uh have fun and celebrate PHP uh birthday and community. Oh yeah, and we have Nuno who will be streaming everything here. Uh shout out to Nuno and uh subscribe to his uh channel and our PHP annotated YouTube channel as well. Okay, I'm talking too much. Um let's start it. Uh thanks Frank. Uh thank you for sorry thanks Amsterdam PHP for organizing this. Um please uh take my microphone. So uh who joined the PHP verse today live. So I watched it myself as well. So I have couple of questions listed to ask to these uh lovely people who contributed a lot to this community which paid our bills for years. So I want you to welcome this uh panelist to the stage. Nuno, Nails, Kale, Harris, and Larry. Last and least. Perfect. So, we should know you all, but uh I would like ask you to introduce yourself uh to people. Uh, hey uh, I'm Neil Sadderman. I started Composer. I work on private packages, composer, packages.org, uh, anything to do with package management in PHP. And I am a board member of the PHP Foundation that you should all become sponsors of if you don't already sponsor the PHP Foundation. Hello, my name is Cali. I worked on the Windows support for PHP for many years. So, if I have maybe made your favorite OS work for your favorite language, that's it. So yeah. Hi everyone. I'm Harris from Greece. I'm also organizing the Laravel Greece meetup. I'm currently staff and educator for Laravel News and I mostly create long form video content about Laravel. Hi, I'm Larry Garfield. I've been PHP developer for years. more than 25. um been uh part of a number of different open source communities uh within PHP including more recently uh PHP internals itself. Um that's me. Uh hi, my name is Nuno. I am staff engineer at Laravel. I've created a few projects in the PHP community, past PHP, Pint, and a few others. And yeah, that's me. So uh if you want to ask any questions anytime just uh tell me I would bring the mic to you but uh I would like to start asking some random questions. We'll give you random answers. So we all know the AI changed the way that we are working these days. drink. So I want to hear from you what uh what's changed uh from the contribution side and you say contribution side. Um I mean there's definitely a lot of random PRs that people send that are clearly AI generated that don't actually make any sense because they didn't actually tell the AI anything useful. Um, and at the same time, uh, it definitely sometimes helps you get through things that otherwise you would have just left lying around on the side as taking too long. And then maybe now with that help, sometimes stuff gets done that otherwise maybe wouldn't have gotten done. Somebody else wants to. So I can say that AI has changed everything at least since last year for sure. Um many people have not touched code since then which is a good and a bad thing depending on if you like coding or not. So or if you like managing agents right so and it has also changed a lot on the content creation side because uh of editing softwares and article new articles u creating articles uh for learning this has this has slowly been dying as well video is still standing but I don't know for how long to be honest we'll see we only I have not done any AI coding. I'm keeping it that way as long as I possibly can. Um, not because I like writing semicolons, but because any discussion of AI that uh doesn't acknowledge that all LLMs are built on copyright infringement, sweat shop labor, and environmental destruction is unserious and not worth your time. So yeah, mainly it's just made me angry. Well, um, at Laval I work on the open source team and we definitely saw an increase of, um, issues and pull requests being literally generated by AI without any human review. Uh, most of those issues are almost spam from the same people. Uh, with I'm pretty sure they literally go to cloud code and they say, can you just randomly create issues on Laravel? So I can say that I've contributed to open source. We have literally already blocked people because of that. It's happening with issues happening with open source uh pull requests as well. As a developer um you know um pretty much all my colleagues are using AI at the minute uh using heavily cloud code uh 4.8. I must say though yeah the costs on AI are also increasing a little bit. Um if I ask my colleagues right now how much they're expending on AI tokens the costs are exploding at the minute. So I think like in the next couple months we probably are going to see a shift on the industry. Um I'm not sure yet which shift it will be but something will happen for sure. And one question regarding those people who bombarded you with a AI pull requests. What is your reaction? Do you respond to those people or Yeah. So the question was uh what happens you know to that people who are bombarding you with issues and pull requests. It's just weird cuz sometimes we do stuff like uh we have seen that you are creating more than 20 pull requests a day and those pull requests typically don't make any sense at all. Uh can you just maybe slow down a little bit and they keep going. So I almost think some of them are just bots at the minute. Um I don't know why but um yeah we I I do think that GitHub should do something. You know GitHub as a company they they should definitely do something to protect open source. I don't know what but they should definitely do something. So my next question would be the combination of uh getting hired uh with the new era of AI. Previously it was uh the questions that uh what the code standards are you using? Are you familiar with the PSRs? uh what are the design patterns that you are interested in or you have used? But is it the same question that these days we should ask people when it comes to interviews or should we even think of uh new versions of the standards that are more AI friendly than developers friendly because humans are not those people who are reading the code. So, leaving aside my earlier comments, at this point, the AIS are not good enough to produce code that shouldn't be reviewed by a human or that doesn't need to be. You still need to be reviewing it 100%. If you're interviewing a developer, you need to ask, if the AI failed tomorrow, could you still do your job? You need to ask, if the AI produces 2,000 lines of code for something, can you catch the security issues it just introduced? It should be asking, you know, how do you keep the AI in check, not how fast can you vibe? And that's the skill that's going to differentiate someone who can produce a lot of code from someone who can produce code that doesn't fall over in production. Yeah, I I would just add that probably what will distinguate like top level engineers from mediocre ones is literally like how many safeguards do you have to the AI generated code? Like every single time I see someone building an app and it's saying I'm using AI for building this app, I the first question I do is what are you using in terms of tooling to protect that code for being bad? Do you use Recctor PHP? Do you use PHP stand? Do you use PHP unit or pass PHP? How many type coverage do you have? How many code coverage do you have? That's the first question I do when they generate code through AI because I do feel like again just like Larry said, AI does not produce good code to begin with. And these are really the last safeguards you guys need to put in place to make sure that the AI generated code actually have top quality. And PHP stand max is awesome. Recctor PHP when very good configured is equally awesome and pint by default is awesome as well. And also answering to the first part of your question about finding a job in the this AI era. I think it's going to be very hard especially for juniors right so it's going to be almost impossible at least for now but until the companies realize that without juniors they cannot find seniors some so many years so just build projects use the codes understand each line read it carefully make sure you really understand what it does and from that point onwards you can only hope at this point I mean it's It definitely become much much harder nowadays. I can definitely Yeah. Well, I can speak from a point of view of being someone that has looked at applications and also someone that recently got hired. And as someone that has sat and looked through applications, there is a lot of spam almost through all of these applications coming. It's hard to differentiate between what is an actual good developer, what's someone that has generated like oh I can know all the I know all these things and the best tool I found is to actually sit with them like onetoone like uh physically not just virtually and actually interview them that way because then you can get to know the person better and actually see if it lives up to that. And as someone that has recently been hired, it's also difficult to find uh be found through that stack. So you know uh I think there are like some fundamentals that remain unchanged. uh if you uh you know want to stand out, if you want to be selected for a job, if you can signal that you do more than uh apply your skill at the specific niche that you are applying for, but that you can show that you are interested in the thing that that company you're applying with is actually trying to accomplish. If you can show that uh you are going to do more than literally write down whatever somebody else told you to do uh which you know was already a good quality to maybe think on behalf of your employer and like to try and achieve something and like actually be motivated for that job. Those things haven't changed depending on whatever tools you happen to use. So I think in that sense uh you know if anything those things have become more important um and so I think that's really what you need to focus on is that you actually figure out a way to be effective on behalf of who you want to work for if you're applying somewhere. I think there's a question over there. I mean, two questions. You can pass the mic. on this topic of um people entering our industry. We've the AI crazes been going on for two or three years. There have been new people hired that who only have had their job in the era of AI. Is there a future where as costs go up or downsides become more noticeable, we start losing using less AI? And does that mean we need to retrain people again in the classics? How does that work? To to any juniors who are listening, you know, on on stream or whatever, um, learn your fundamentals. learn how to write code without an AI. Even if you're using an AI at work, knowing what it's doing under the hood will save your butt both professionally, you know, career-wise and in terms of getting the job done successfully. I honestly want to say exactly what you said which is I would be very concerned if I were a junior developer right now just pushing code without actually understanding what I'm pushing just because like all of us here I think uh have passed through the process of learning something right in the past I don't know about you guys but me like when I first got introduced to I don't know type safety I had to struggle a little bit and the struggle taught me something uh even about like learning PHP or learning JavaScript the struggle of learning and working with a new langage language taught me those two languages and I think like if I were a junior right now and I would just prompt something not even see the outcome not even try to understand the outcome I would be really concerned um as such if I were a junior developer right now I would 100% spend my time saying to my boss look I have this outcome right now but first I will understand it and understand if it's a good option uh and just dive into it before I actually get this done um in the future regarding the costs of AI I I have literally no idea what's happening. I do know they are going to increase right now cuz those companies who have raised billions they need to start making money as such will raise costs. So things are going to become much expensive. Although what's happening in the next 6 12 months I have no idea. I'm paying a burger to the person who can fix the music. What do you what do you guys think of AI uh security features that are in GitHub and uh AWS has now already won uh and uh do you guys use them themselves because security is increasingly important? AI features on GT this one. I can try. Um, so recently I actually have studied a bunch. Um, is the microphone on? It's not on. Microphone is not on, but the music is no microphone. The So the music is now more loud. The microphone is quieter. Thank you, Neil. How many years does it take to turn on? We're web developers. We don't do this kind of stuff. All right. I'm going to try to answer. You in the back can hear me, right? It's all good. So actually in the last two weeks my whole job was trying to understand how much can I push the security of GitHub. There is indeed some features we can enable under the settings of GitHub that are a little bit hidden mean that people do not know they exist but you can enable them to do some security checks. One of them is checking for malware, which is really good. Meaning that GitHub will automatically understand if you're pushing something that contains a malware and that will Oh, that was good. Okay. GitHub will automatically understand if you are pushing malware in blocking the release. There is also something really interesting on GitHub settings, which is you can actually scan your the thing you are about to push to see if it contains passwords. They're actually a very sexy one. So imagine that you are locally you have a hardcodorded password and you are doing a push GitHub before accepting that commit and put it on the history will block the commit so we will not even be pushed. So, GitHub, what is funny about this is that GitHub have a lot of these small features, but nobody knows about them because they're super hidden within UIs, you know. So, I have built something called a Laravel remote which you can run it is a rust CLI tool and it will just tell you what you need to enable. There is a bunch of stuff including two identification and a bunch of security features that are awesome on GitHub. I'll try. Hello. First of all, thank you all for being here again this year. I hope to see you again next year. Uh I have a question. It's not about AI. I hope that's okay. It's actually about the PHP community. So when I started doing PHP, uh I think I was the worst hobbyist ever and I did all the things you will tell me now are horrible like logging into FTP and coding on the live server. Everything was just plain PHP files because object-oriented programming was far too difficult for me. But I made stuff and people liked it. I feel like community has changed throughout the years. We've become so much more professional. We keep telling everyone about best practices and how to code, right? We don't Okay. I I feel like we've gotten more professional. Um and I'm wondering on your opinions, is that just a good thing that we've become so professional and and software engineering has become a profession or should we also sometimes be a bit more amateur hour? One of the great things about PHP as PHP has evolved is that the same language can support the professional best practices development and amateur hour and the pathway from one to the other is surprisingly smooth. uh you can start off with a codebase that is previous company I worked at the codebase was written by someone who was learning programming as he was building it and it showed but he was smart and I could see okay you're doing something intelligent here you just don't know the actual way to do it but the pathway from there to okay doing it right is there it takes time but it's there so I think one of PHP's strengths is that you you start with a bunch of loosey goosey untyped code and mutate it into a nice professional, you know, well ststructured codebase without having to do a rewrite completely. Um, I do think that the, you know, you must be this high to ride the ride has gone up from what it used to be, but I think that's probably okay given how many billions of dollars ride on the software industry. Um, there needs to be a high need to be this high to ride the ride. It shouldn't be that high but you know you need to know basics of security before you can write software. I think that's reasonable. I want ahead something but I don't want to speak all the time. Is that okay? Okay. So I want ahead something which is when I when I so I was a junior then I became a senior software engineer and when I learned these concepts about DDD and pattern and you know all these very complicated terms what happened to me was that I was trying to implement them all the time even in my own blog for example so I don't know my advice would be sometimes like okay you learn those things they are awesome they protect you for the future and XYZ but sometimes just keep it simple cuz you will get it much faster done and potentially we understand if product will actually generate some money before they try to explore a few other topics like DDD or exop pattern and everything. Um I do remember when I learned when I read the blue book about DDD I was trying to do it all the time and then I realized I have a bazooka for you know building something really simple. So yeah some people try to overthink sometimes we can keep it simple and then while the problems appear we implement something a little bit more complex. can take uh I want to add to what Nuno said like you're not building Facebook just remember that uh like whenever I'm building something uh I have to get out of that mindset of yeah but I'm not writing something that's used by 10,000 people writing something that's maybe used by five you know keep it simple like it's good to put those practices in and you can also use that as a how do you say a learning ground like to experiment to see does this concept work, right? So use the opportunity like don't uh don't just go all in. Um a friend of mine recently he published a book coron look that up if you like um he wrote something in there which is basically or I think fits in this is yes write testable code but that doesn't mean test all your code um in the sense of be conscious of the uh cost that uh your time represents uh I think that's something that like advice that developers specifically at larger companies should often and take to heart which is your time spent on something actually costs your employer money and if you want to be productive effective on their behalf then spend that time consciously uh and don't treat your time as a free resource. Um and I think that's generally something like you can apply this to you know how much time am I going to spend on a particular project or how detailed do I want to get on this thing. It's also something to keep in mind with, oh, do I really need to spend a few weeks building this random little tool uh and how much does that cost my employer versus maybe paying a subscription fee of a few bucks a month somewhere. Um, don't treat your own time as free. It's not. It's a very valuable resource that you have and that you have control over. I want to add a fun fact. Can I? So, here's a fun fact. Um I went to this journey where I was complicated things all the time. But then I went to this journey where I wanted to simplify things all the time. Now I have built a social media called the pinkery.com where the database is SQLite. The cache is SQLite. The session is SQLite. So it's still running all on SQLite in a cheap $3 droplet until this day. The social media is like 3 years old. You have like a thousand concurrent users at the minute and uh it still works. SQLite and probably most people would say SQLite is not for production users. It is. It just works. And the backups are amazing. You just copy the file, dude. Isn't that great? And that also includes restoration. Yes. So, I actually have a problem. I had a problem with a dude. He did the migration which literally screwed the database. And it was like, well, time to test if restores will be as effective as backups. So, we literally had the backup which was a SQLite file. We copy over. Bam. And it was working. The easiest restart I have ever done in my life. That's a true story by the way. I believe it. Hello everyone. This is social media. Still running every day with people. Press the pause button. Is there a button on top? What are we trying to do? Turn up the music. our hero. Someone bring him a free burger and a beer. this guy. All right. So, I have a question. So, I myself I'm a junior. Um I started gold in I would say 2022. So, yeah. Um I have a question. You guys keep mentioning fundamentals. And um when you talk about fundamentals, I think about maybe basic sentence like how a function works or how to write for loops or how to um just basic syntax. So, I I want to ask a question. you know nowadays in this AI crisis it's really difficult for juniors to find um jobs especially like me and the expectations from a junior these days are very very high um for example I saw one um job opening that expected the junior to be able to build a web application that I I think that back then that will be the job for three developers u so my question is when you guys talk about fundamentals what do What do you actually mean? What fundamentals are you guys talking about? Are you talking about just basic syntax or being able to uh build web applications? So, we're all up here waiting for the mics whispering to each other. That's a very good question. So, thank you for asking it. I think the fundamentals that you need to learn are what differentiates code that I will be able to maintain next year from code I will not be able to maintain next year. That's more than just syntax. It's is this code that I could write a test for. Is this does this code have five ways it can break, three ways can break or only one way it can break? Is this code you know have I defined my data structures my classes and my enums in such a way that certain problems are physically impossible to happen. Um you know thinking this is really why it's a challenge for a junior in some cases because a lot of these are you know you you have to see the mistake you made two years ago that now you have to deal with and like oh I really screwed up two years ago because I don't know how how to maintain this this is bad. Uh, and part of becoming a developer is shooting yourself in the foot like that a couple of times. And so I I would focus on like thinking through what's going to make this code easy for me or someone else to maintain later. How can I keep it simple enough that I can understand it when I haven't seen it in a year? Things like that. I think the better way to think about that u because like you say yourself it's difficult to judge that if you haven't experienced this is more um is like you try to figure out how to write code in a way that somebody who doesn't know what you're doing understands what that code is supposed to do. Um because that will usually be yourself a year later like where you're just kind of looking at this and going like huh I wonder what I was trying to do there. And it's the same thing when you're working in a team with other people. And then if you produce code that other people can read, then that's a good sign. And that is actually a skill that you can more easily train with AI because it generates some random code and then you can try to figure out like do I understand what it's doing there and why? And I think if you are able to answer those questions quickly and easily and also be maybe be able like if you figure out how to tell like this thing is really weird and confusing, what's a better way to express it? So like if I saw that like I would actually understand what it's doing. Then you're already in a much better place to then learn these things about maintainability and long-term stuff. But I think it's a lot about still figuring out how do you produce code that somebody else can understand. And I think that's um when people talk about like write like you know test your code or like write testable code that a lot of that is also synonymous with understandable code like code that provides enough context for somebody else to understand what's going on. I mean so if you can keep the confusion low and like like that's really more the how and it's not so much about the syntax it's about the how do you organize and structure code in such a way that somebody can make sense of it and I think that's really the thing that you have to figure out like how do I best do that um and that does take a lot of practice experimentation there's a quote I can't remember who it's from always code as though the person who will maintain your code is a homicidal psychopath who knows where you That's good advice. You don't want that person to be angry at you. So, as Nils was saying, make it something that's not going to make the future developers who have to deal with it angry. I wanted something which is really cool, which is, uh, when you start learning these fundamentals, um, solid principles, um, first, you know, when you start learning all those patterns, something you will understand very quickly is that they are portable to to different languages as well. So I find myself for example doing Rust at the minute and I apply the same principles that I've learned on PHP. I find myself doing JavaScript and I still test my code as much as I test on PHP. So even if you if you think like oh I'm learning solid principles with PHP. All those learnings you are going to apply them as well in the future doing React code on the front end or doing some Rust CLI tooling that you are doing right now. And I just wanted to clarify that because a lot of people say which language should I start as a junior software engineer? it doesn't really matter like all the stuff you are going to learn variables functions classes object-oriented programming all of that is portable to other languages and I find myself that when I learned PHP then I learned Python it was a little bit more difficult because of asynchronous programming then I went to TypeScript with generics complicated as well but then after that all the language was like peanuts for me I was very easily able to understand Go Rust even C and to top it off to what everybody else Right? I think it's not about again functions or classes or anything. It's that's you'll find this in every kind of language. It's about the algorithmic logic, right? And everything behind it. You need to understand the logic behind what you write and focus mostly on that. I think that's what most junior engineers have an issue with. understand the logic behind what they're trying to achieve and less about writing the class correctly, the braces correctly or for loop or whatever that is algorithmic logic. That's I think that's everything. I mean I think that maybe goes a bit too far because maybe those are not the transferable fundamentals, but I think that is just as important for somebody getting into programming because if you don't figure that out, you're going to be in real trouble. Like that's basically like saying like I mean I think if you want to be like a professional craftsman at something you do have to actually learn the craft like yes you will understand like you eventually you will need to learn the principles the transferable things that you can reuse in other circumstances but you do need to learn the underlying craft and I think that goes back to what we were saying earlier a bit about how yes uh whatever AI use at your company happens to be the case like…

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