Dry Run: Episode 10

live. Sil, we are back. Three months. I was looking at the docs. It's been three months. We've got a lot of stuff to cover, man. Yeah, it's um it's been a while. Yes. You've been pretty busy, too, if I'm not if I'm not mistaken. And actually, you're on vacation right now. Is that right? You took a break. That's why I decided to just call up my buddy with cameras pointed at our faces. You're like, I'm going to not think about work for a week. It's been a really busy week. We just had our birthday week. 15 years, by the way. 15 years. A kingsa, if you will. Uh, and here we are. Here we are a week after Sunil's taken some time off. A lot of stuff was built uh uh dur during this time. A lot of like, you know, that's a people talk a lot about like uh there's so much stuff that you all are shipping. What does that feel like? you know, like I get to I get to talk about the stuff that happens. What does it feel like to be in the ship zone? Uh birthday week is always special because look, we're always shipping all the time anyway. And we don't try sandbagging. Like we were shipping like two weeks, three weeks before birthday week, right? But birthday week is interesting because for folks who don't know, it's uh uh one week of the year that coincides with cloud with Cloudflare's birthday. And uh we ship a bunch of huge things. So Workers was announced at birthday week. R2 was announced during birthday week. I think the Wrangler rewrite was announced during birthday week. Uh it's usually a time for like hey like here are some big swings like here are some cool things we've been up to. Give it back to the internet too, right? Like it's always like happy birthday internet, right? Exactly. Yeah. Internet kind of thing. So, uh, it's sometimes a little stressful because, well, like you want to put your best face forward, all of that, and you're on the organizing committee, so to speak, for the birthday party or the event planners. Uh, and this time was interesting because of course, um, a lot of AI agent stuff in the air, And I was just thinking, it's the year of the agent. Still the year, it's still the year of the agent. Yeah. Next year, too. Uh uh what was interesting I think is agents as a team our little group of like four people we were supporting multiple efforts instead of like shipping anything of our own own even though we actually have some big things in the pipeline. Um so that was an interesting perspective basically hopping across hey okay we can help you with this help you with this help you with this ship this ship that um so and it was also nice to just like reflect back and think about the company hell like my time here I so u I was just mentioning this to you which is so because this is my week off I realized that I haven't actually watched Frraasier end to end Frasier the the cheers offshoot exactly the cheers offshoot famously the Cheers off shoot. Uh we love it. Like my wife and I, we both loved the show for like years, but I haven't actually watched it. And I watched it and in season one, something like episode 3, he's like, "I'm 41." And I'm like, "I'm 41. What do you mean?" Like it's so weird to like face the show and like, "Oh, I'm as old as this person in the show." So do do you feel like he's more accomplished? Like how are you comparing yourself? Uh how does that how does that make you feel cuz I feel like that happens right when when age happens you're like I'm comparing myself to this this Oh yeah like look man in tech uh we are always in a state of arrested development you know me I dress like a freaking teenager you're wearing a hoodie and a t-shirt uh it's we we have never really like grown into like conventional adults you know like top hat tie have a cigar uh have a gin and martini gin mart Martini for lunch, that sort of thing. Like I've never done those things. Of course, I'm also thinking about like my father at this age. He was like like an adult adult, you know. Yeah. And I'm here like I have no idea what I'm doing with my life. It's uh Well, Fraser, that's what you're doing with your life. Yeah. Exactly. Like I'm like eating like oranges with the peels on my watching the show and I'm like, "Okay, might be might not be the right thing." But yeah, birthday week was great as you as always. Like you're always worried about it, but like we have a great track record. Matthew says this, by the way. He's like everybody else now tries to do innovation weeks. You've seen, right? Like every company now tries to do uh and he says that the biggest mistake that they do is uh to have an innovation week, you should have enough stuff that fills a week. The reason that Cloudflare has a week is because oh my god, like six announcements a day. If you do like one announcement a day, then by day three, everyone's like, "Dude, just get on with the story." No. Here, like there was like not only were there like five, six big announcements a day, like some things didn't fit the calendar, we we have to like ship it this week and next week now simply because there was no space. So, it's uh Yeah, it it went well. It went well. I'm quite excited because we're clearly taking like new bets. Yeah. Yeah. So somebody on uh YouTube, if if you're watching this on YouTube, you can say stuff uh to Senal. Senil is living the life. I believe that's probably in reference to your oranges Frraasier uh watching thing happen. Are do you think that maybe you are the Frasier of software development? Because I I I think that he brings what what Frraasier brings is common sense and thoughtfulness and future-looking things. I think that I think you can can you can you be the Frraasier of software development? You're the same age. Yeah. No, no, you say that, but I think I'm more like JD, you know, from Scrubs. Okay. He's clearly a child in a man's body. Even though he's a very good doctor. They they make it a point to say like he's a good doctor and people like working with him and all that, but he's a child in a man's body. I think I'm more JD than than anything else. Sometimes I think I But by the way, I absolutely tie myself to lead characters of like TV shows. Some days I feel like most of the time I feel like I'm Liz Lemon. barely holding it together. I I have a very competent team, but always I'm just like, "Oh, you guys like I can't believe I have to do this." Uh, and I also have eating habits, like a very disgusting eating habits. So, okay. More like Liz Lemon. Uh, no. Um, man, we we have this conversation all the time, right? Like one is you go from being the youngest person in the room to being the oldest person really quickly and suddenly everyone's looking up to you for direction and I'm like uh but then you do some things right and I'm like okay I am capable okay like I'll I'll just keep trying the thing I'm I'm trying. We make mistakes along the way as well. Um yeah yeah whatever. Yeah man. And then I think like I think the other thing and we've brought this up also before on this show is that like one of the things about getting getting be becoming the more senior person is you get to take credit of other people's work. And I think see I think it's time that we start let's let's go through this list and talk about what you did for birthday week. Actually before we do that the thing that we shipped that we didn't start last week. Craig congratulations on AI Avenue. Oh thanks man. Thank you. You are like a TV star. Actually, no. I was watching it and I got a big vibe of late '90s science shows because you also have an animated puppet uh which is confusingly a hand. Even though other puppets are usually a hand inside is an actual hand. If you're watching this, you folks, if you're watching this, you folks have to have to watch AI Avenue, by the way. It's all on YouTube. It's free. You're down three episodes now, I want to say. Yeah, there's there's three there's three episodes. We did one on uh uh voice, so generative voice. We did one on vision. Uh and then we just we're just wrapping uh this week uh thinking is out. Next week is learning. And York, my robot hand, goes a little off the rails. So, it's time it's time for that that story arc to happen where he starts, you know, he's learning and he's learned how he can uh generate stuff and he's he's going to actually kind of take over. I mean, like, spoiler alert, but like we we've got some ethics to deal with. Uh, famously, robots that get lives of their own have caused no problems. So, they should be a good watch. Should be a good Hey, let's jump into the announcement. Awesome. Yeah, let's do it. So, so, uh, oh, real quick, avenue. We'd love to see you there. Uh, and share it with everybody, right? Because it's for everybody because AI is for everybody. Uh, all right, let's do it. Let's start taking some credit. Sen, are you ready? The first one that I'd like to see you take credit for um is a big movement that happened a long time ago. Uh there's a there is a status code called 402. Do you want to talk about Yeah. 402 is a is an HTTP code that you can return in a response that says that it's a paid resource. You have to provide proof of payment to be able to access the resource. Well, actually it just says we've checked and you haven't paid. X42 is a protocol. I think the folks at Coinbase started it. Uh and different people have been making uh attempts at like making it work. Worcel's uh Ethanizer built X42- MCP that's really good. Uh agents SDK launched some support for it. But interestingly the announcement was that Coinbase and Cloudflare are building a joint development foundation and I think like there will they will have like other players in the future to like actually formalize this as a thing for every this is the sort of thing standards are kind of good for there's no particular invention of the tech per se but the new ecosystem of MCP servers and um uh just AI like agentto agent communication like that's what x42 is about like how do you do automated either automated payments or uh human in the loop whatever like but they're now building a protocol that you can use I'm getting I'm getting some uh reports that maybe we need to pull your mic a little bit closer did but I thought I just did that I saw you saw better now someone in the chat can tell me whether it's better now that would be nice um but yeah uh look payments actually is going to be like foundational to is it's not just X42. Yesterday, Stripe and Open AAI announced what they're calling Agentic Commerce Protocol. Uh that's also interesting. Why Why is that? Let Let's Let's pop up a little bit. Why Why are we Why are we here? Why are we talking about paying? Like what's going on? Okay. Oh man, like this is like the $3 billion question. So, um typically when you put content on the web, right? Uh there were three kind of reasons that uh oh man like how do I wait I'll try to kick up the volume a little bit. If someone can keep telling me whether it works or not that'd be nice. Okay. Um there are three kind of reasons to put content online uh beyond the oh I want to share it with everyone. Okay. Uh either you do it like for the fame. Mhm. or you do it for uh let's say ad space in return for like advertising. You're like, "Oh, like I've built a brand. You can do that." Or it's directly paid content like Like you you have to pay to actually get access to the content. Yeah. You you set up a firewall to get in there, right? And this has been like the the backbone of the internet for what some 20 odd years, right? This is kind of how it's operated. More than 20 years. Uh but specifically agentic crawling has kind of ruined the math on that. Uh like I can't remember the the uh exact numbers. I think it used to be that roughly for every six crawls that a uh something like a Google or some search engine would like do of you, they'd send you one visitor. And it turns out that number now is gone completely won. It's now closer to 200 to 300 for uh some some some of these things and it's only going to get worse, right? Like I when I do like an 03 search on chat GPT, I very rarely click the links which is bad in itself, but that's the nature of like this usage, right? That's and that's what's happening, right? Like we used to we used to count on those blue links and those blue links people are not getting there because they don't need to because the answer is there for you. That's the that's the dilemma, right? Yeah. So uh you kind of need to implement any of or all three of these mechanisms. Now like for agents either your content serves ads directly in the like the the content itself contains ads and somehow the agent has to like show those ads to the users or there has to be attribution somehow saying that hey this came from Sil's blog or you're given the option to make a payment while you're searching for that content which and it's all very tricky there are no like uh I mean if it took 10 15 years to figure out the answer for regular web. It'll take take a few years to figure it out for the agentic web for sure. And things like protocols are actually super useful for this. Uh whether X42 wins or ACP wins or A2P or some some whoever uh remains to be seen. The best thing we can do as infrastructure providers and as like framework uh creators is to at least make it easy to use and try these things, U so the X42 foundation uh announcement was big and of course uh agents SDK has inbuilt support for it and when I say that I mean you can build uh an MCP server where the API we have is something that we actually uh got inspired by uh Ethan's work is you know in an MCP server you usually say this.server.tool name description arguments you can actually now say this.server.paid paid tool and you can put like cost and stuff like for it over there. Wait, so so if I were to call that I would have to pay. Exactly. Oh, nice. So either you can set it up so it happens automatically. Uh I mean this is up to the application people. Uh or you set it up so that uh there's a little confirmation before you pay for it. Nice. So there's there's the great use of the commerce too. So I'm going to do this thing that costs money. I this is going to cost the the developer who made the site who's hosting this thing is going to cost them money and they're just passing it along like I would like I would love for you to do this but I'll give this to you. Yeah, I'll I'll run this this work for you but can you throw me a bone? Yeah, exactly. You just pass the payment back and being able to just take a function and mark it as a paid tool I think is like quite powerful. There's a lot of work to be done here, but it is actually usable and has tests uh as of today. Like you can you can just update agents SDK and you can start adding paid tools to your MCP server. Also, the MCP client itself by the way I have to actually talk about this. Our MCP layer over the last month to six weeks has gotten a lot better. So Nares and Steve on the team, they spent a bunch of time just fixing the fundamentals, updating how the SDK is used to be closer to how it's meant to be used. Like for example, um uh request headers weren't exposed in tools before this like so we had to like fix that. Our MCP client support for O was even though like we were so involved in the process of making it work. It was actually super buggy and we fixed that like completely. So if you're connecting to like oath servers etc. it now works like out of the box and some quite clever tricks in that by the way. So quite happy about that. So on this foundation now we can start building stuff like hey how do you do paid tools? Um there are some new things uh coming up in the MCP spec for longunning processes and like there's like a bunch of stuff. I'm very happy that Okay, fine. We can now like in lock step with the stuff that's happening in the official SDK. We can bring that stuff to agents. Yeah, cuz it's moving quick, right? It's it's moving quick over there. The the MCP stuff. There's like always something new like wholesale adoption everywhere, right? Like just fully awesome. We got a OOTH was buggy and it's fixed. Fantastic fix. There you go. Awesome. Thanks. Thanks to the team. Like they really like just went through it line by line and just fixed so many things. Uh we haven't made a lot of noise about it, but I'm not I'm not joking. Night and day difference like six weeks ago versus like now. I feel like it I I feel like it landed in the the middle there of the the uh the MCP, right? I feel like I feel like it it landed right in the middle of Birthday Week. all those MCP changes there as they were coming through. Um, so, so on that MCP front, if we are seeing people, how where do you want to see people go to report issues now about that? Is there is there something that we should be promoting there? So, you can go to the like look I uh because we're a framework team, we're kind of like a nexus of different efforts. Yeah. uh if if you're using agents SDK and you have trouble with MCP, you're absolutely welcome to just file an issue like with us uh directly on our repo. Uh if you are super certain that it's like an MCPmCP problem, the official org is literally called model context protocol on GitHub and I think the repo is Typescript SDK. So github.com/modelcontextprotocol/typescript SDK. Um but honestly you can come chat with us in agents. Um uh you you're very tied in on that community, right? Like you you guys Yeah, we've been speaking to that team as well a little more closely. We want to get even more involved. By the way, this is just the fun of open source. Like even if we dedicated our time just to making MCP better, right? Like just helping out with issues and triage over there. Uh not only will our stuff get like adoption, but like everyone's stuff like gets better. It is a the I this is kind of the dream situation I keep thinking about where I'm like you know what like I'm not in it for the revenue game or getting people no I just like this tech has to get good at a time when things are moving so quickly and it's worth it it's actually worth it just to us to support the effort like just like dedicate some people and you know what I think we might actually do that uh trying to work out some stuff but we might just dedicate resources to efforts like X42 to um MCP, etc., etc. Oh, that's cool. That's a that's a great that's a great idea. And I think that um you know, I think pushing a protocol forward, this is the second proto we're we've talked so far about two protocols like pushing protocols forward in this time when there's new ways of thinking about business and there's new problems that are coming up that we have never seen before, right? About letting, you know, I I believe that MCP is about letting agents play better together and 402 is about letting them uh also play better together, right? So, so we're we're moving into to the year the agent properly with with protocols, right? See, there's an MCP thing I know we want to talk about, but before that, since we are talking about protocols, yeah, uh I want to talk about Captain Web. Okay, let's hit it. So, uh Kenton built something called Captain Web. And the first thing that strikes you about it is that it's not Cloudflare specific. It's not uh it's meant for any JavaScript runtime. you can actually do it in between two worker threads on your browser and it's a new way of making like HTTP calls. So it's not competing with your React query, GraphQL, etc. type thing, but it is the same space. So people who already build Cloudflare workers might be familiar with how we do RPC calls, right? So between a worker and a durable object and so on so forth and so remote procedure call. Remote procedure calls. Exactly. Right? And uh this there are two or three really clever tricks about it and the best one is what we call promise pipelining. And what that means is okay fine let's say you have an object that has three asynchronous functions on it A, B and C. Sure. Uh if you were talking to it with regular JavaScript async aait, let's say you would say hey uh and let's say you had to call them one after the other. Okay. You would say, "Hey, await A." Await B, await C. Okay. That's how you do one after the other, Uh but promise pipelining means that you can actually chain them together. So you can say A function call B function call C function call and that entire thing goes to the worker, gets executed one after the other and then like comes back. So it's closer to like a GraphQL. Whoa. So like one it's one call back up. It goes one call. Not only Yeah, not only is it one call, but like it all gets executed there like at the same time. Uh and there's like some fun branching stuff you can do there, etc. And then your questions about how do you do arrays if you want to run like a function on every element of an array that's returned back. Literally my questions. Yeah. So so that happens all the time, right? You got to you get an array, you have to process each item and you have to go one at a time. Yeah. So how do you do that? All of these things are answered by So now Captain Web is an implementation of that but for any JavaScript runtime. Uh I designed a uh stupid uh AI slop mascot for it. It was a cross between Captain America and Spider-Man. I don't know if you saw that. I didn't know that was your work. That was absolutely my work. Which is to say I'm taking credit for chat. There you go. Finally was mine. I was waiting I was waiting for that to happen. Exactly. It is mine with a tagline protect and connect. I'm going to drop I'm going to drop that uh link here in the And it's got it's got Oh, it does it. You know, you didn't make the repo, man. The your your your guy. He's on the blog post. I'm going to get the blog post because I think that the blog post was also awesome. Yeah, the blog post is actually super interesting. It's the sort of thing that Cloudflare blog is very good for. technical deep dive into something like very fascinating and innovative and and so it's called Captain Web, but I've heard of Captain Proto. This is the this is the same guy. It's the same guy and it's the same ideas. In fact, of course, this one doesn't use the uh like the take on protocol buffers, which is Captain Proto. It just uses JSON. But that's like a first implementation. I think like we're working on like different transports, different languages. Like there's no reason you can't use this from like a Go or a Rust or something like that. Oh, nice. Uh but it's very exciting because because the experience is in your worker, you'll define what's called like an RPC target which does all your API calls. Okay, you call it the API surface. Best thing about it, don't care about HTTP, whatever. Uh you just write function calls. You can define an O handler which handles the O for it. And because it's pipelined, it means that it'll execute for the lifetime of that session. Whoa. It has it stays alive. Yeah, because it all happens in one call, right? Even crazier if you use the websocket transport. Uh you can do it like for multiple but like on one websocket connection. Ah, it's so good. So good. Wow. Yeah. Uh so the the experience is you write that And then you import captain web and you start talking to that endpoint from your browser. There's no defining, oh, I'll do like a request body post get. No, forget about it. Just wow. Just just just like go to town. Because we've gotten so used to that abstraction that that feels like something that you have to do. I have to post to this resource and then on the other side I have to run this function that does but you just run the function. This is how I do batching. This is Yeah, forget about No, this is uh uh this is going to be really good. I want to make of course I want to make a react wrapper for it. uh and honestly anyone can I want to try using it uh a totally different thing and we'll talk about Tanstack in a second. I know that but I've been playing with Tanstack DB. Mhm. which is one more in the it's not exactly a sync engine but it definitely has the pieces available for you to build a sync engine and it'll probably shine like with captain web like so uh I'm very I'm so excited to play with these things by the way honestly I think I've taken the week off and I already have like two side projects just playing with the stuff we announced there was so much stuff announced I didn't even know that it was like coming I was like okay cool like this is awesome new [ __ ] so Uh, cap captain web I think is a fundamentally new thing that you can use and incrementally add to your existing apps right now whether or not you use Cloudflare workers, Uh, and I think it's some 6 KBG. It's like not very big. You should just It's not heavy or anything. It's really cool. You should absolutely like try it out. And I I saw Yusuke has uh already done some hono work with it too. So there's like a hono version of this thing. I just saw that drop. I don't know if that was like last night. Yeah, nice job, Yusuk. Nice job. Awesome. So, uh uh let's talk a little bit. I saw there's um I know the the the last time we talked, the very last time we talked, we talked about some vibes. We tal we had sandboxes. We have sandboxes coming. Everybody's needing to have sandboxes and building stuff. I saw a thing that landed that I haven't fully even wrapped my brain around. And uh it's it's called Vibes SDK. Is that is that what what landed? Vibe SDK. Vibe SDK. Okay. Uh by the way uh I think during developer week of course we announced um the new Cloudflare India engineering office right uh in Bangalore and of course I went and hung out with them in uh June and it was May May in May and June and it was amazing. Uh those guys are nonstop bro. Yeah. So Y bestK is a mostly India centered thing like this was built mostly in the India office. They do like a ton of AI stuff. Uh also they have a couple of like really great designers. I've been enjoying the hell out of. So they did the X42 playground. They did uh Wbe SDK and then they also did the landing page for netdoll.com which by the way Cloudflare has a stable coin. Yeah. I'm like I didn't know we were doing all these things but sure I guess. Uh but no so they did WB SDK and of course just so we're clear like the design is one thing but WSDK is full-fledged. Uh internally we've been talking about oh should we have a little codegen platform etc. Uh and yeah I think the answer there is still yes but these folks did the meta thing which is you know what we're just going to build end toend platforms. So if you want to build your own your own lovable v 0ero bolt whatever whatever uh this is the starting point and the thing about it is that it's not 400 lines of code it's a lot okay it has to it comes with like its own gallery so you can show how to do these things it shows how to play um it shows how to uh have previews running previews by the way built on agents SDK and sandbox SDK uh very very proud of it. They gave us like such good feedback. We we fixed a bunch of things just for them. Oh, wait, wait, wait. This this runs on this one runs on the SDK. Yeah, this uses agents SDK, sandbox SDK, and of course containers. So, this is you could take credit for this. I take credit for all of it is birthday week at this point. Like, I'm tired and how they're very very grateful to have me uh well, taking credit for their work. But so know let's let's let's I want to actually let's let's clap at that a little bit, right? Like we build on our tools, right? Our team is building on top of the tools that are building on top of the tools. So like we we have that like dog food effect, right? Of like the tools get better because of that. So I'm sure you got a lot of feedback for that cuz that and it's cool. I I saw I ran a couple of these. I made a magic eightball. I was like uh make a make me a magic eightball app that remembers and it did it. It built the whole thing out. It built the whole thing out. I did the DVD screen saver. That's my favorite thing to do. DVD logo. Yeah, that's what I did. One shot, by the way. No mistake. It got it rightly. So cool. Uh yeah, it it it's it's very gratifying to see people uh using um agents SDK and sandbox SDK. Um because the truth is in production, right? Uh and Cloudflare of course has a nature of shipping stuff early, especially when they're like innovative innovative ideas. Uh but there's absolutely nothing like building on production to actually expose the the pros and cons, what can we do better, etc., etc. Uh and it was really really nice working with the India people on this. It was absolutely cool. In fact, the person we were working with is actually interning in Washington right now, but he was part of the India uh uh India effort and multiple people in India is what it is. But it's very very nice to see. So Wbe SDK is end to end like previews um uses containers uh deltas tool calls all of those things and it's like barely done like as you can imagine the next thing I want to do is yeah I want to hook up like MCP servers to this so that the agent knows it can do these things while building these apps right yeah the thing I want to do is uh I keep I don't know if I'm pretty sure we spoke about it on some episode of dry run uh imagine having access to internal information like your databases and stuff and saying build me an interactive report like literally something with sliders and graphs and stuff that I can now share with my team and my group and stuff. It's not just about like landing pages even though it's very very good at landing pages. uh the thing is going to become like a monster uh builder thing like I I think that's what that's that's what this is unlocking right that we and we did talk about this about the barefoot coder stuff right about like I see this thing you know I think people are getting braver right like like employees uh you know maybe somebody's on the marketing team or the sales team and they're diving in now they're diving into chat and they're using Gemini or whatever app they have locally at their place that they're allowed to use and they're using it and they're building stuff and soon I think I think we're getting to the point where like you know what I'm just going to build an app. This thing could build an app for me and we're getting there, right? Like I I feel like I feel the shift coming. I think that that uh for me that's super I I I love that thinking about like how many times in my life, oh, Craig's the computer nerd. Go talk go tell Craig your idea. It's like no, look, do your idea. Like we're at that time now where you can actually take your idea and and like build the thing. I can't wait. I can't wait because I' i've heard some wild ideas that I've never seen made, right? Because I didn't have time to do it before in the past to build them or help teach them how to do it. I I think it's crazy like the world the world of web development or rather the accessibility this didn't exist like one year ago. Like they were already there but like things got so coding agents get got like so much better. Um yesterday I saw a tool by um that's called AMI or ANI. I don't know if you've seen this. It's it's a modality for building web pages that I've wanted forever. I used to talk to Steve from TLR about it, but this guy just built it out. Um, and the idea is that you should be able to rightclick on like you're looking at a web page that you're building, not the code, And you right click on elements that you want to change. It pops up a little text window there and you should be like, "Yeah, change this thing now. Change this thing, etc., etc." instead of like looking at it then going to or taking a screenshot or even asking it like look at the browser no instead directly on the page there are these new modalities that are emerging and I'm like whoa wow that's finally okay yeah this is this is the game like that's like a Google doc almost right like you're just editing the thing like you want it to look before you put up yeah asking for changes I I'm like very very excited about that oh that's super rad the the the vibe SDK thing so you you kind of said it's kind of like a factory Tory like you you you want to every company could have their own here build your thing on your platform that yeah because if you think about it right like especially in bigger comp no I I say bigger companies but this is going to make it accessible to smaller companies uh you always want there is infinite appetite for software uh especially if you consider that a lot of software maybe you just might be like for one specific use case and you don't want to pay $20 a month like for that. Uh or it you want it just for six days like you just want it for a very short period of time. And either you buy third party software or you hire a software engineering team and then like they're like smelly engineers who barely do anything. Whatever. Uh uh wow. I'm like is this a hate crime against myself? Like I'm a software. I think maybe you smell like oranges because you have oranges all over your I have a very low opinion of myself and by extension all soft extending it. So uh uh you um yeah everybody should have a little thing internal to their group organization company where they can build out little things for themselves that they connect to their own data resources uh and ship it internally like behind Cloudflare access or some o or something like that. Yeah. Yeah. The more I think about this, maybe we should take VB SDK and like make make it for like mom and pop shops, right? Non techy companies are like, "Yep, take it, run with it, do whatever you want." Hey, we've got we've got the creator of Supermemory here, Supermemory.AI saying huge fan of the show, Davia. Davia's uh Super Memories. I I've been noticing that they've been shipping a bunch of like new features lately. Uh, one is super memory now works out of the box with the AI SDK which is nice which is of course the most popular AI framework out there. Framework library. Uh, I've always told you I considered the jQuery of like uh AI right now. Yeah. Which we could never decide if that was a framework or a library. I think it's a library. It's nice to see Draia like really grinding. Draa and his team of course. uh because even we well we've been thinking about like oh our agents should have memory as well beyond just SQL storage you want semantic memory and we want to make sure that we match super memories API simply so that people can use super memory when they want to like we just have to make it like that easy nice uh so uh cheers okay fine enough talking about Dravia I do this I just every three weeks I think about Dravia I praise him I talk about how he taught me how to use cursor and I'm I'm like I'm done, dude. At this point, he should be paying me for for Hey, let's talk a little bit. I mean, we we talked if you want to, you could go check out uh Super Memory, right? Super memory is out. Open source. Yeah. And and it's and it's out there. I think that it's out there, right? So, usable today. Speaking speaking about open source, we did some sponsoring of open source during birthday week. Do you remember what we did? So happy, dude. So, that's just it. They picked four projects which I really really love. Okay. Yeah, two of them are JavaScript frameworks. Uh the uh Tanner Linsley's Tanstack and Fred Short's Astro. Both great great work. I was telling you about this. The thing I like most about Tanstack and I think this comes mainly from Tanner. It's um uh he's the most he's the combination of extremely technical like he's like he knows his [ __ ] like really well but also he's the most pragmatic person I've seen like who builds these solutions because he he he he's not off in ivory tower building only framework. He has been building like real products like for years, high performance uh not just basic um uh uh like HTML pages and stuff. No, no, he's like he builds like machines on applications and stuff. So uh Cloudflare is sponsoring both of these things now, Astro as well as uh Tanstack. uh and I couldn't be happier because you know this right like even though Cloudflare has made uh done a bunch of work and we have a whole post about how all the work we have done in NodeJS compared for the last year and it's again night and dayv files work process works node http works do you know you can run expressjs on cloudflare workers now you can it's the it's the craziest thing bro you can take an expressjs app and add one line of code without changing any of the existing code and It works out of the box. It's amazing. Oh wow. Uh so even though we do that, there's usually a little bit of work uh to make these things run natively. Uh you know, a while ago we worked with the React router team to make like Remix React router work out of the box and that was because of the work we collaborated with VIT on their new environment API. Uh so we're kind of bringing that to Astro and Tanstack as well. And the way we're doing it is we are chucking a bunch of money at them. They're like, "Here's some money, make it work." Uh, again, this is the open source dream, right? That you're like, "Yep, you do this and it becomes better for like everyone else, but also it works well on Cloudflare." Yeah. Yeah. And sponsorship sponsorship always helps, right? Like I think that's so cool. It's so cool to to to have that and push that. I've been wanting to build with Tanstack. I've heard so much good things about it, dude. Like Tanstack start is their flagship thing. It's their meta framework. But the thing I want to give I want to give a shout out to is Tanstack DB. Uh, you know, I'm like a fan of uh um like sync engines. We also sponsor Liftore by the ineitable Johannes Shikling. Uh uh Tanstack DB is not all the way to being a sync engine. it but it does give you the pieces to do that and like I said when it comes to pragmatism right like I've been playing with it and I like using it with third party APIs which is how most of the applications in the world are built like one of the problems with sync engines are they say hey just connect this to your database and you go to any fortuneous company they're like yeah we're not letting JavaScript developers touch our databases go to just go to hell like who the hell are you to come talk to us like this did your manager approve this meeting get out of get out of here uh So, Tanac DV is particularly interesting because it works it's very flexible working with third party APIs etc. So, uh it's on my list of in fact like I think I'll be playing with it more this week. Uh anyway, so those are two projects. The other two are not JavaScript frameworks. Uh they're both very very ambitious projects. One is Andreas's Ladybird browser. You know how everyone who tries to build a new browser nowadays it's basically a Chromium folk. Right. Right. Uh which don't get me wrong, the reason they do that is because it's millions of lines of code, So they so many problems already. Exactly. So Andreas has decided, yep, I'll write all those lines of code. Wow. Like it is literally from scratch. Like he writes the C, the rendering engine, CSS, all of that. It's been going on for I want to say 3 to 5 years now. I want to say three, but it could be longer. Is that based on a movie? Do you know? Isn't there a movie called Ladybird? There is a movie called Ladybird. No idea. I have to re Yeah. and we're so And you know what? It's so the kind of thing that Cloudflare should be sponsoring, right? Like of course Cloudflare, the internet company should be sponsoring creation of a new open source browser, helping build a better internet, right? That makes sense. Uh the other project is DHH of Ruby on Rails fame, right? uh is uh making a Linux distribution and it's called Omari uh and uh people love it and it's he's very much in the uh like uh love it or hate it the the premise is uh yeah you don't need to use Mac OS etc you are developers you should learn to own your software etc etc and he's making a distribution called Omari which I see a lot of people trying on Twitter and they end up loving it people are loving it. I see it all over the place. Again, it sounds like the kind of thing Cloudflare like sponsors if I understand right. Look, if you're doing a Linux distribution, this means you have images worth GBS up somewhere and throwing Cloudflare in front of it is the best thing you can do to keep it efficient and fast, And Cloudflare saying, "Yep, this is the thing we want to invest in makes it free for them." So, it means suddenly the distribution of Omar becomes that much faster, easier, cheaper. So that the team can focus on building great software. Just the marriage of the worlds. It's Yep. Yeah. Especially and especially for birthday week, too, right? Giving back to the internet. Helping build a better internet. Yeah. Awesome. So cool. Cool to see that thing go. Um I think I'm ready, man. Uh you had a you had a banger come out on Friday. I think I'm ready to hear about it. I am I am ready to hear about what your brain is on here. And let's let's go. Let's hear it. Yeah, that phrasing is interesting because I feel high every time I actually think about it. So, it's called code mode. Code mode, right? You want to talk about code. That is a 100% what I want to talk about and I think people want to hear about to be clear the idea came from like Kenton and uh the by nature it came from DSP who spoke about it but there's some prior art to this. Last year, Apple came up came out with a paper that they call Kodak. And the idea being, hey, LLMs aren't trained on like tool calls. That's not a thing they're trained on, Managed to make it work, but they're not trained on it. You know what they're trained on? They're trained on terabytes of source code, Uh LLMs are good at writing source code. In fact, that was, I think, the aha moment for a lot of people in 2023, right? Holy [ __ ] this just spat out a React app with JSX and it worked. Yeah, we didn't. What do you mean a large language model is generating code? And turns out that it's actually really good at and things. Oh my god, dude. Like in two years, actually, it's almost two years to the day chat GPD. oh that's true. Things are like coding agents are like the PMF use case for LLMs. There are others, deep research, etc. come to mind. But coding is like fundamentally a model has to be good at code nowadays. Um so the way that tool calls, what I call tool calls work with LLMs is you start with some context and you tell the LLM, hey, here are some tools I have and this is the structure of the arguments you can pass to it. And it's usually passed as like JSON schema by the way which says oh this is the name this is the description these are the arguments these are the types and the LLM takes that and it returns back hey by the way you should call this function with these arguments and you should call this after that you should call this function with these arguments etc etc and it comes back we take it we read that out call the function take the answer go back go back to the lm's like okay now that you've done this you should do this so there's this back and forth etc yeah the loop you You know that process that I just discovered? You know what regular people call it? They call it code. Okay. Like, hey, take this argument, run it, take this, take the results from this, pipe it to this one, etc., etc., right? Right. Right. So, instead you tell the LLM, you're like, hey, you have one tool. Okay. We call it code mode. Okay. This tool can do all these 12 things that you can this thing. So all you have to do is give me a description of the code that has to be written, not even the code. Okay. Um the code mode tool takes that and it generates code for that function description. So you're like, hey, find me all issues. So you use like something like git mcp, find me all issues related to websockets and uh uh cross reference my Gmails for anything that had to do with websockets, whatever, like across tool calls. and here and code mo you you take all the tool definitions that you have particularly the MCP tools right like all MCP tools are self-describing by the way the the the solution that we came up with works with regular tool calls as well not just MCP by the way okay that's the fun thing about it I'll go into detail about that so you give it this thing as a TypeScript as TypeScript types in the context you should see the I think we have it in the blog post examples you it literally generates TypeScript types for those uh tool definitions given JSON schema it spits that out and then it writes code uh and okay it writes code so what Cloudflare workers famously has not had eval you've not actually been able to uh run code in in a Cloudflare worker like dynamic code right dynamic code so so take a string and this is this is working code I want you to run this you just couldn't do And the reason we haven't done that many many reasons but the big one is like security. Eval is like so eval is evil. That's what Crockford used to say. Um so so code mode actually hides probably a bigger announcement inside it which is what we call dynamic isolate loading. Dynamic worker loading. I call it dinos or super eval. Uh we have a number of like phrases for it. Uh wrangler Jason calls it a worker loader. Uh okay. And the idea is that it's like eval but it's like 10x better. So you can basically define a worker as a JSON object just like you would define wrangler JSON. So you can say compatibility date, compatibility flags, And then you can define the code. Okay, you can define multiple modules. But for the sake of this conversation, let's say you can define one string of code. Okay. And then you can decide what environment variables are exposed to it. So you don't have to expose everything from your original worker. You can define what functions are available to be called inside the worker. Uh do we call this exposed bindings? I don't know. I don't know what the terminology is. Mhm. Uh but you can say hey here are some functions that you can call and then you can guarantee um you can also control all outgoing fetches because this is the most Cloudflare thing. You're a security company. Don't forget, right? Okay. And by default, you actually want that outgoing fetches to be null. Like you don't want any outgoing fetches. If you want to do any requests, you only call the functions I call you. Inside those functions, I'm calling fetch. I'm doing a bunch of things. I'm really connecting calling MCP tools. That's the 99% use case, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So, yeah. Code mode generate. So, the code mode tool generates the code. It runs it inside an isolate where the only things it's given access to are these tools that you have proxied down into it. No outgoing fetches and it runs and our initial results are extremely promising. So first thing you can imagine is the context gets completely squished because you don't have to hold all those intermediate JSON results in the middle. Okay. All of them. Oh yeah. Yeah. It's just off to the side. only outputs are in this. Uh it's faster because there's no back and forth with the LLM now. It's happening like in the same thing. It's happening in that dynamic worker or wherever it's at, whatever that dynamic worker is doing. Right. Uh by the way, uh that's the thing. Uh I want to now run captain web inside an MCP server and I want my code mode to call these tools with promise pipelining. Yeah. So that wow like all of these things come together at the same time bro all of them just come together. so uh dynamic isolates is what runs it gets you the code. So like I said initial results are super promising but it is a deep research area. Uh there are so many trade-offs to it right like oh what if you don't have output schema for an MCP2 that became that's part of the schema only since like uh I want to say like three months ago. Oh what happens if the LLM fails? How do you yield back? You need to start wrapping all these function calls with invariance now. And the way DSP describes it is you go away from doing uh well this code mode inference. You just if it throws an error then just give it back to the LLM and continue with the LLM. There's like so many things we can do. So this is like a multimonth project. Yeah. But easily I'm just so excited about it because I mean what happens the way that we design what happens to call if it fall if it fails? What happens with the tool call if it fails? currently like we same same loop right you currently mark it as an error and you tell you you almost pass the error back to the LLM and it says oh sorry I'll try something yeah I'll do it again yeah so same same pattern same pattern exact that's what I'm saying so if you look at the API we designed the first or first implementation lets you use it with AI SDK apps but we'll make it work with everything else later you can take an existing AI SDK app and they have a little tools object okay and you can basically wrap wrap that with code mode. That's the only change you need to make that wrap that tools object with code mode. Uh and say go to term so you get you get an object back. You get an you call code mode, you get an object back. It has it has tools. Oh, that's so cool, man. That's so cool. Uh and our base expectation and we still need to make it good enough to do that is that it becomes faster and smarter, Uh and then we start doing some other like mad science on top of that. That's That's the plan. Nice. People can go play with this now. It's out. It's live. Uh import mode from agents/code mode/AI. Oh man, it's available. You can got some fun to do. I got some fun to do. What What's your What are you um what's the biggest dream? What's the one that you're like, I want to first of all, what's the what's the obvious one? Obvious use case and then I want the senial pie in the sky. Lead your don't don't start with the pie in the sky. We often start with the pie in the sky. What's the obvious use case here? What is this given me? So, no, so that's just it. The the the base expectation is that any existing app you should be able to make faster and smarter without changing models and it'll probably make everything cheaper like actually. Yeah. Am I saying it becomes faster, better, cheaper? I think you did. I I don't know if you're allowed to have all Maybe you finally got all three. I must be wrong, right? Well, like I said, it's not good enough to do that out of the box, right? Okay. It will very soon. Soon you'll have all three. Yeah, maybe it will. Okay, so faster, better, smarter. Faster, faster, better, smart. Uh, faster, better, cheaper. Faster, better, cheaper. but I think it unlocks. It's It's like you're asking me, hey, why is JavaScript better than JSON? I am. You know what I mean? I am. Like there are things that are so unimaginably hard to express with a DSL like JSON. Yep. And then that you have to build your entire system around. But when you have access to be able to write code, there is emergent behavior that you can't even plan for. Right. You don't know how people are going to use this. It's not even like about people. You're saying you're giving the LLM the opportunity to start expressing itself in a world where coding models are getting better. Like that's true. Cloud 4.5 came out yesterday and it's the best coding model on the planet right now. Yep. Until the next one comes out in a couple weeks, Isn't that so cool? I I love this this cycle that we're in where it's like, "Oh yeah, check this out. Oh yeah, check this out." So fun. It's tiring. That's why I need a week off. Awesome. And then and then let's go. Um, uh, what's something that you like I feel like this there are things that you would be like, "Ah, I'm not going to even try that. That that'd be too gnarly to do with all the MCP tools together." But I think you you hit it a little bit where you're like, "Do all of this stuff. Go check my emails. Go do this. Go from one call." What? Yeah. So, we are going to lean more deeply into this addressibility thing. Okay. We might I think we're going to announce something in October and I'll be like I I don't even want to hide it. U Uh I think we want to do something serious around real time next audio video. Nice. I'm not saying this is exactly what we'll do but you know how we have on email on connect on request. Uh you saw I already implemented call my agent. I saw so yeah that I mean that that was like almost open AAI specific uh but I think we want some version of that baked into every agent which we don't have right now. Yeah I think that's the world we're headed to right yeah I think so that I so that I think is going to this addressibility thing is going to be a thing I chase for the rest of my life but it's actually like getting like really good. I'm loving it dude. I'm And I'm loving that like even just web hooks into it like web hook your yourself into an agent that agent gets better. Yeah. It's so cool for web hooks. So there is that. There's other like foundational stuff. I have to remind myself it's been so long since I've worked. I've been off for two days, bro. The world world has changed. It really has. I think we were competing with an OpenAI announcement that I I still don't know what it was. I don't know what they did, but I think I'm going to guess Sora, too. If someone can tell us in the chat what can I announce? What What were you watching before you came here? Yeah. Let's see what else did we miss from our announcement. Dude, that's just it. There are just so many announcements. There's so many. There's so many. We're making everything self-s served. There is one post called here's everything new about Cloudflare developer platform that two years ago would have been like three days of That's amazing. It's like bonkers, dude. Like it's just it's too much to keep up with. and city announce emails by the way. That's right. I I totally forgot. That's huge. That's huge news. You can now like Yeah. Every time I Every time I put a piece of content out there like win email, win email. Oh my god, dude. Yeah. So, for context, uh people might know we have had email workers that you could receive email and you could reply to those emails, but we have never actually had a thing where you can send the first email before, Well, now you can. It's time. Just send out like a [ __ ] ton of emails. Go for it. Private beta, I believe. I believe it's launched in a in a in an upcoming private beta, but like it's here. That's right. Yep. It's here. It's here. And you should think about it. Uh, and if that was like holding you back from not jumping on the stack, it's time to jump on the stack. And I hear that. I hear that. I'm ready. I'm ready to do this. As soon as you guys get emailed, I'm ready to come because I mean, imagine how good that feels, man. Imagine that just like a binding and you're like binding. Send like email. Send like is such a it and it's there. Yeah. And you don't worry about it in the same way that you don't worry about the other stuff, right? The same way that you don't worry about how I'm going to host this thing or how fast I'm going to get to that. You just don't need to worry uh because we want your code, which is nice. I I keep like I think bindings are one of those things that are clearly divisive in the Cloudflare developer ecosystem, but man, they make like the idea of a binding being the thing that you use to talk to services is just so so powerful. Yeah. that I've been thinking about this I think we have already been there but it's still only been very few people taking advantage of this. Cloudflare is a platform for platforms. Like workers for platforms a year ago was enterprise only paid users a little while ago and even then it's built for a particular use case. Now with dynamic isolates, you can build a crazy version of workers for platforms that even we didn't think of, right? Like there's some fundamentally new things like code mode. Yeah. Like and code mode is not even user generated code. It's like LLM generated code. Well, dude, I to that point you just you just uh there was another announcement that happened that was part of this with the enterprise get everything like you don't need to do an enterprise plan. Everything's going to be self-s served now. Self-s serve. Yeah. Yeah. And that's huge because I know that a lot of people want that. I know that people like, "Oh man, I wish I could use this feature of the interf." Well, you can. You know, I got a couple of DMs about this saying, "Oh, is this pissing off your enterprise customers or your sales team?" And you have to understand the exact opposite. First of all, enterprise customers love self-s serve, And it's how Cloudflare used to be like properly back in the beginning. Uh secondly, um it turns out that it actually increases revenue if you make it easier to buy that stuff, right? Yep. Uh so yeah, that's dude, there's too much to I told you like I thought the premise of this episode would be we run out of time to talk about everything that's new and we we are two minutes from close is what it looks like. And you got a Frasier episode to watch. I'm sure I'm going to watch 12 in a row. That's what I'm going to do. Oh, nice. And you shoulding, bro. Dude, you deserve it. You deserve it, man. That That was a South Indian place and we ordered like a bunch of food. Like I'm going to eat biryani today after 6 months. I'm like quite excited. Oh, you haven't had a Oh, cuz you took your break cuz you you went all in. Exactly. I went all in in India. Like I was just like not I lived in I was in Hyderabad. That's where my in-laws are from. I like I just like no biryani for a while. But now I'm like I have the hankering. It's time. Nice. Nice, man. Well, enjoy enjoy it. Enjoy the rest of your vacation. Thanks for coming on. By the way, uh, quick note. You and I are hanging out with each other in about a week and a half, two weeks. Oh, yeah. Yeah, we are. Cloudflare Connect in Vegas, baby. We're going to be in Vegas doing Vegas stuff. We're probably coding in a in a nice airond conditioned place. Uh, I mean, honestly, we should do an episode of dry run, like live dry run from like like with each other in one room. That would be nice. Oh my gosh, that'd be amazing. That'd be amazing. Especially because there'll be all So Cloudflare Connect by the way for folks listening in. Uh my favorite thing about Cloudflare Connect is it brings people from all the offices together. Okay. Uh and these are all like my favorite people that I see just and then rectangles on my screen the whole time. Uh and like I said, I'm 41. Oh, this is just bringing it back to the beginning of the episode. I don't do drugs anymore and I can't spend like money on all the shows. I was thinking of going watching the Eagles at the dome, you know, the big spear thing. Whoa. Yeah. Those tickets are like $600, $700. I'm like, no. So, my other plan is to uh just do a food thing. Do you want to join me? Like, yeah, I want to do like a 100% in. Restaurant hopping. That's the plan. Let's do it. And we'll do dry run. Nice. Let's do dry run from different restaurants. Done deal. Done deal. 100%. Awesome. So, good to see you, Sil. Thank you everybody for tuning in to this dry run and we will let you know the next time this is happening. They're not on the regular but they are always fun. So we'll see you soon. Thanks everybody for hanging out.