Narendra Modi: Prime Minister of India - Power, Democracy, War & Peace | Lex Fridman Podcast #460

- My strength lies not in my name, but in the backing of 1.4 billion Indians, and thousands of years of timeless culture and heritage. So, wherever I go, I carry with me the essence of thousands of years of Vedic tradition, the timeless teachings of Swami Vivekananda, and the blessings, dreams, and aspirations of 1.4 billion Indians. When I shake hands with a world leader, it's not Modi, but 1.4 billion Indians doing so. So, this isn't my strength at all. It is rather the strength of India. Whenever we speak of peace, the world listens to us. Because India is the land of Gautama Buddha and Mahatma Gandhi. And Indians aren't hardwired to espouse strife and conflict. We espouse harmony instead. We seek neither to wage war against nature, nor to foster strife among nations. We stand for peace. And wherever we can act as peacemakers, we have gladly embraced that responsibility. My early life was spent in extreme poverty. But we never really felt the burden of poverty. You see, someone who is used to wearing fine shoes will feel their absence when they don’t have them. But for us, we had never worn shoes in our lives, so how would we even know that wearing shoes was a big deal? We weren’t in a position to compare. That’s just how we lived. When I became Prime Minister, I specially invited Pakistan to my swearing-in ceremony so we could turn over a new leaf. Yet, every noble attempt at fostering peace was met with hostility and betrayal. We sincerely hope that wisdom prevails upon them and they choose the path of peace. I believe even the people of Pakistan long for peace. Look, regarding what you said about criticism and how I deal with it, if I had to summarize in one sentence, I welcome it. I have a strong belief that criticism is the soul of democracy. I want to tell all young people the following: No matter how dark the night may seem, it is still just night, and morning is bound to come. - The following is a conversation with Narendra Modi, the Prime Minister of India. It was one of the most moving conversations and experiences of my life. Allow me here to say a few words about it. Please skip ahead straight to our conversation, if you like. Narendra Modi's life story is incredible. He rose from poverty to lead a nation of 1.4 billion people, the biggest democracy in the world, where he won epic-scale elections for Prime Minister three times. As a leader, he fought for ideas that unite his nation of India, a nation that is composed of a large number of highly varied and disparate cultures and peoples who have a long history marked by religious, social, and political frictions. He's known for taking decisive, at times, controversial actions for which he's loved by hundreds of millions of people, and is also criticized by many. We discuss all of this at length in this conversation. On the world stage, he's respected as a peacemaker and friend by most major world leaders, even those whose nations are at war with each other, from United States to China, to Ukraine and Russia, to Israel, Palestine, and the Middle East, and everywhere else. Now, at this moment in history, it's clear, at least to me, that the flourishing of human civilization hangs in the balance, with several wars on the brink of escalation to regional and even global conflict, rising tensions between nuclear powers, technological developments from AI to nuclear fusion that aim to completely transform society and geopolitics as we know it, and, of course, generally, increasing political and cultural turmoil. So now more than ever, we need great leaders, great peacemakers, who build bridges, not destroy them, who may preserve the identity of their nations, but still celebrate the common humanity of all of us, all people on Earth. For this and many other reasons, this conversation with Prime Minister Modi was one of the most remarkable I've ever had. You may hear such words and think that I'm just enamored by power or access. No, never was, never will be. I do not idolize anyone, especially those in power. I'm generally skeptical of power, money, and fame because of their natural corrupting influence on the mind, the heart, the soul of a person. The whole point of all the conversations I've had in my life, on mic and off mic, is that I try to see and explore the full complexity of every human being, the good and the bad. I believe we're all the same in a deep fundamental sense. All capable of good, all capable of evil, all carry stories of pain and stories of hope, whether you're a world leader or a truck driver, a coal miner or a farmer in the American Midwest, and, by the way, I will be talking to a lot of the latter kind of folk this year, off mic, and maybe even on mic, as I travel the US and the world. My brief statements here about Narendra Modi are about both him as a leader and especially him as a human being. In the extensive time I spent with him, I spoke with him off mic and on mic. It was a deeply personal human interaction characterized by warmth, kindness, humor, inner and outer peace, and absolute focus on the conversation between us in the present moment as if nothing else existed. I have heard from many people that he treats everyone he meets in this empathic way, no matter where they come from, or what their position is in this world. So, for those and many other reasons, this really was an incredible experience I will never forget. Oh, and by the way, we made captions and voiceover audio tracks available in English, Hindi, and other languages. You can also listen to the original mixed-language version where I speak English and Prime Minister Modi speaks Hindi. Separately, you can choose to turn on subtitles in your preferred language. On YouTube, you can switch between language audio tracks by clicking the Settings gear icon, then clicking Audio Track, and then selecting the language you prefer. For fully English overdub, select English, for fully Hindi overdub, select Hindi, and to listen to the original mixed-language version, where I speak English and Prime Minister Modi Speaks Hindi, please select Hindi Latin audio track. So you can listen either to a version that is all one language, or to the original mixed-language version with subtitles in your preferred language, the default is English overdub. All thanks to ElevenLabs and a great team of translators, we do our best to bring the Prime Minister's voice to life with AI voice cloning in English. I promise that we will continue to work very hard to break down the barriers that language creates, and try to make these conversations as accessible as possible to everyone in the world. Anyway, let me pause one more time to say a big thank you. What a wild ride this life has been. It's an honor for me to be on it with all of you. I love you all. This is the "Lex Fridman Podcast." And now, dear friends, here's the Prime Minister of India, Narendra Modi. So, I should also say, I’m fasting right now. It’s been almost two days, 45 hours. So just water, no food, in honor of this conversation, just to get in the right mindset, get into the spiritual level. I’ve read that you often fast for many days. Can you explain why you fast and where does your mind go when you fast? - First of all, I’m truly, pleasantly surprised and honored that you’re fasting. All the more because it feels like you're fasting as a tribute of respect for me. So I express my deepest gratitude to you for doing this. In India, our religious traditions are actually a way of life. Our Supreme Court once gave a brilliant interpretation of Hinduism. They have stated that Hinduism is not about rituals or methods of worship. But rather it is a way of living, a philosophy that guides life itself. And in our scriptures, there is deep discussion on elevating the body, mind, intellect, soul, and humanity. They outline various paths, traditions, and systems to achieve this and fasting is one of them. But fasting alone isn’t everything. In India, whether you see it culturally or philosophically, sometimes, I see that fasting is a way to cultivate discipline. If I put it in simple terms, or explain it to the viewers who are unfamiliar with India, it is a powerful tool to bring both the inner and outer self into balance. It shapes life in profound ways. When you fast, You may have noticed, as you said, you've been fasting on water for two days. Every single one of your senses, especially smell, touch, and taste, becomes highly sensitive. You may even notice the subtle aroma of water itself, something you probably never noticed before when drinking it. If someone walks past you carrying tea, you will catch its aroma, just like you would with coffee. A small flower you’ve seen before, you will see it again today, but now, you can perceive its details more vividly. Your senses become extra sharp, highly aware, and fully tuned in. And uh, their capability, to observe and to respond, multiplies and grows sharper. I have personally often experienced this. Another thing I’ve experienced is that fasting can greatly accelerate the thinking process and can, uh, give a fresh perspective. You start thinking outside the box. I don’t know if everyone experiences this, but I certainly do. Most people assume that fasting simply means giving up food or not eating. But that’s just the physical aspect of fasting. If someone is forced to go without food due to hardship, with an empty stomach, can we call that fasting? Fasting is actually a scientific process. Whenever I fast for an extended period, I prepare my body in advance. For 5 to 7 days before the fast, I follow various Ayurvedic practices and yoga practices, along with other traditional cleansing methods to internally reset my system. Before actually beginning the fast, I make sure to drink a lot of water, as much as possible. So, you could say that this detoxification process helps prepare my body in the best possible way. And once I begin fasting, for me, it’s an act of devotion. For me fasting is a form of self-discipline. For me, personally, even while I go about doing my daily activities during a fast, my mind remains deeply introspective and focused inward. And that experience is profoundly transformative for me. My practice of fasting didn’t come from reading books, listening to sermons, or following a tradition just because my family happened to have observed it. It came from my own personal experience. During my school days, there was a movement inspired by Mahatma Gandhi’s vision his vision of cow protection. The government had not enacted any laws at the time. At the time, people across the country observed a one-day fast by gathering in public places in silent protest. We were just kids, probably had just finished primary school. Something inside me said, "I should be part of this." And that was the first time in my life I experienced fasting. At such a young age, I felt neither hunger nor any desire for food. Instead, I felt a new awareness, a surge of energy within me. So, I became convinced that fasting is a science, far beyond just skipping meals. It is something far greater than that. Then, gradually, I refined my body and mind through various experiments. Over time, it became a long and disciplined journey for me. And one thing is certain, fasting never slows me down. I work just as much as usual, sometimes I even work more. And another fascinating thing I’ve noticed is that when I need to express my thoughts, I’m amazed at where they come from and how they flow. - Yeah. - It’s truly an incredible experience. - So you still do meetings with world leaders, you still manage the affairs of India, you still carry out your role as a leader on the world stage, all fasted and sometimes nine days? - Well, this practice has a long historical context. I hope it may be interesting for those listening. There is an ancient tradition in India called Chaturmas. During the monsoon season, we know that the digestion tends to slow down. And so, in this season, many people in India follow the practice of eating only a single meal within 24 hours. For me, this starts around mid-June and goes on until after Diwali, around November. For about four to four and a half months, I follow this tradition of eating only once in 24 hours. Then comes the Navratri festival in India, which usually falls in September or October During this time, the whole country celebrates Durga Puja, a festival of strength, devotion, and spiritual discipline. This lasts for nine days. During this time, I completely abstain from food and only drink hot water. Although, drinking hot water has always been a part of my daily routine. My past lifestyle was such that I naturally developed this habit over time. Then, in March or April, another Navratri occurs, called Chaitra Navratri. This year, it will likely begin around March 31st. During this nine-day fast, I eat only one specific fruit, once a day. So for those nine days, if let’s say I choose papaya. then for all nine days, I won’t touch anything else, just papaya. That too I eat only once a day. That’s how I follow my nine-day fasting routine. So there are numerous fasts I keep throughout the year, and this has become a deeply ingrained tradition in my life. Perhaps I can say that I’ve been following these practices for 50 to 55 years. - Has there been times when you met with a world leader and completely fasted? And maybe what do they think about that? What do they think about your ability to do that kind of thing? And you're right, I should mention that from even my two days, my ability to be present, my ability to sense everything sharply focus on this experience is elevated. But yes, is there stories with a world leader that maybe jumped to mind when you were fasted? - Well, most of the time, I don’t even let people know about it. It’s my personal matter. So I never publicized it, but people gradually started finding out. It became known only after I became Chief Minister and Prime Minister. Otherwise, it was purely personal. But now that it’s out in the open, I don’t mind sharing. If someone asks, I tell them so it might be useful to them. Because it’s not my personal property. It’s my experience. And if that can help someone, why not share it? After all, my life has always been devoted to the well-being of others. For example, after I became Prime Minister, I had a bilateral meeting at the White House with President Obama, and he had also arranged a formal dinner. Then, as discussions between the two governments progressed, someone said, "Please, join us for dinner." To which another replied, "But the Prime Minister doesn’t eat." This left them a bit concerned. How do you host the leader of such a major nation at the White House without serving food? When we sat down, they brought me a glass of hot water. I turned to President Obama and jokingly said, "Look, my dinner has arrived!" as I placed the glass in front of me. Later, when I visited again, he still remembered. He smiled and said, "Last time, you were fasting." This time, we're having lunch Since you're not fasting, you’ll have to eat twice as much! - Let's go to the beginning. You rose from humble beginnings to lead the world's largest democracy. So, I think there's a lot of people for whom this is truly inspiring. Your family was of very modest means, and you grew up in a one-room house with a mud floor, your whole family living there. Tell me about your childhood. How did those humble beginnings shape your outlook on life? - My birthplace is in Gujarat, specifically in North Gujarat, in Mehsana District, in a small town called Vadnagar. Historically, this town holds great significance. And so, Vadnagar is where I was born and completed my early education. Looking at the world as I understand it today, I can reflect on my childhood and the unique environment I grew up in. My village had certain fascinating aspects, some of which are quite rare, even globally. When I was in school, there was an elder in our village who would regularly tell students, "Listen, kids, wherever you go, if you find a carved stone or you find a stone with inscriptions on it, or anything with engravings, bring it and place it in this corner of the school. Over time, my curiosity grew, and I started to understand, I realized that my village had a rich and ancient history. Discussions at school often revealed more fascinating details about its past. Later, I learned that China even made a film about it. I had read in a newspaper about a film that mentioned the Chinese philosopher Hiuen Tsang, who had spent a considerable amount of time in my village, having arrived there many centuries ago. Back then, it was a major center for Buddhist learning. That’s how I first learned about it. And perhaps, around the 1400s, it was a prominent Buddhist educational hub. There was a Victory Monument from the 12th century, a temple from the 17th century, and in the 16th century, two sisters, Tana and Riri, who were renowned musicians. As I uncovered these history traces, I grasped the depth of our heritage. So, when I became Chief Minister, I initiated large-scale excavation projects. The findings from these very projects confirmed that thousands of Buddhist monks had, at one time, studied there. It was a place where Buddhist, Jain, and Hindu traditions coexisted harmoniously. And, for us, history wasn’t just confined to books. Every stone spoke, every wall had a story to tell. And so when we began the large-scale excavation work, we uncovered findings that hold immense historical significance. So far, they have discovered evidence dating back 2,800 years, proving that this city has remained unbroken and eternal for all those 2800 years. They have discovered solid proof of how its development unfolded over these centuries. Now, an international-level museum has been established there, open to visitors Especially for archaeology students, it has become a major area of study. So, the place where I was born holds its own unique historical significance. I see it as my good fortune; some things in life unfold beyond our understanding. Kashi became my realm of duty. Now Kashi is also eternal. Kashi, also known as Banaras or Varanasi, is an eternal city that has remained vibrant and alive for centuries. Perhaps, it was some divine design that led a boy born in Vadnagar to eventually make Kashi his realm of duty, living in the embrace of Mother Ganga. When I think about my family, my father, my mother, my siblings, my uncles, aunts, grandparents, we all grew up together in a small house. The place we lived was likely even smaller than where we are sitting now. There was no window, just a small door. That’s where I was born, that’s where I grew up. Now, when people talk about poverty, it’s natural to discuss it in the context of public life. And by those standards, my early life was Our mother worked incredibly hard. My father, too. He was extremely hardworking. And he was also extremely disciplined. Every morning, around 4:00 or 4:30 AM, he would leave the house, walk long distances, visit several temples, and then reach his shop. He wore traditional leather shoes, handmade in the village. The shoes were very tough and sturdy, making a distinct ‘tok tok tok’ sound when he walked. People in the village used to say that they could tell the time just by hearing his footsteps, "Oh yes," they would say: "Mr. Damodar is on his way!" Such was his discipline. He worked tirelessly, late into the night. Our mother, too, ensured that we never felt the struggles of our circumstances. But despite everything, these challenging circumstances of living in scarcity never left a mark on our minds. I remember, in school, the idea of wearing shoes never even crossed my mind. One day, while I was on my way to school, I ran into my uncle on the way. He saw me and was surprised, "Hey! You go to school like this? Without shoes?" So at that time, he bought me a pair of canvas shoes and made me wear them. Back then, they must have cost around 10 or 12 rupees. But here's the thing, they were white canvas shoes, and they would quickly get stained. So what did I do? In the evening, after school was over, I would stay back for a while. I would go from classroom to classroom, collecting leftover pieces of chalk that the teachers had discarded. I would take the pieces of chalk home, soak them in water, mix them into a paste, and polish my canvas shoes with it, making them bright white again. For me, those shoes were a treasured possession, a symbol of great wealth. And I don’t exactly know why, but from childhood, our mother was extremely particular about cleanliness. Perhaps that’s where we inherited that habit too. Not sure how I picked up the habit of dressing neatly, but it’s been there since childhood. Whatever I wore, I made sure it looked proper. Back then, as you can imagine, we didn’t have any arrangements for ironing clothes. So instead, I would heat up water in a copper pot, hold it with tongs, and press my clothes myself. Then, I’d head off to school. That’s how I lived, and I found joy in it. We never thought about being poor, or judged about how others lived, or what their struggles were. We lived carefree, enjoying whatever little we had, and kept working hard. Never once did we complain about these things. And all these aspects of my life, whether you call it fortune or misfortune, unfolded in such a way in politics that they started coming to light. Because when I was taking my oath as Chief Minister, TV reporters went to my village, questioned my childhood friends, went to capture videos of my home. That’s when people started asking, "Who is this and what background he is coming from?" Before that, very few knew much about my life. That’s just how my journey has been. My mother possessed an innate spirit of caring for others' well-being, it was woven into the very fabric of her being. She possessed knowledge of traditional remedies and healing practices and would treat children with these remedies. Every morning, before sunrise, around five o’clock, she would start treating them. So, all the children and their parents would gather at our home, little children crying, and we had to wake up early because of it. Meanwhile, my mother would continue treating them with care. This spirit of service, in a way, was nurtured through these experiences. A sense of empathy for society, the desire to do good for others, these values were instilled in me from my family. I believe that my life has been shaped by my father, my teachers, and the environment I grew up in. - There's a lot of young people listening to this that are truly inspired by your story. From those humble beginnings to the leader of the biggest democracy in the world. What can you tell to those young folks, who are struggling, who are lost in the world, who are trying to find their way, what advice could you give them? - I want to tell all young people the That’s why we need patience and self-confidence. Yes, the challenges are real, but I am not defined by my circumstances. I am here for a purpose, sent by a higher power. And I am not alone; the one who sent me is always with me. This unwavering faith should always remain within us. Difficulties are a test of endurance; they are not meant to defeat me. Hardships exist to make me stronger, helping me grow and improve, not to leave me hopeless or discouraged. Personally, I see every crisis, every challenge, as an opportunity. So, to all young people, I say, "Have patience. There are no shortcuts in life." At our railway stations, there hangs a sign for those who habitually cross the tracks instead of using the bridge. It reads, "Shortcut will cut you short." I would tell young people the same, "Shortcut will cut you short." There are no shortcuts in life. Patience and perseverance are essential. Whatever responsibility we are given, we must pour our heart into it. We should live it with passion, enjoy the journey, and find fulfillment in it. I truly believe that if this mindset is cultivated, it transforms life. Similarly, abundance alone is not enough, there is no guarantee of success. Even a wealthy person who indulges in comfort and idleness will eventually wither away. Instead, he must decide, "Yes, I may have resources around me, but I must use my abilities to grow them further." I must contribute more to society with my own strength. Even if I am in a good position, there is still so much more to do. Even if I am not in a good position, there is still so much work to do, that’s what I believe. I have also noticed that, some people tend to think, "I've learned enough, that's it." But one should never let the student within them die. Learning should never stop. I believe that as long as I am alive, I must have a purpose. Perhaps I exist to keep learning, to keep growing. Now, my mother tongue is Gujarati, and We were not very familiar with the Hindi language, nor did we know how to speak it eloquently or communicate effectively. But as a child, I used to sit at my father’s tea shop. And at that young age, I got the chance to meet so many people. And every time, I learned something from them. I observed their ways of speaking, their expressions, these things taught me a lot. Even though I wasn’t in a position to apply it then, I thought, "If I ever get the chance, why not?" "Why shouldn’t I present myself well?" So, I believe the desire to learn should always remain alive. And uh, another thing I’ve observed is that most people dream about achieving something or becoming someone. They set big targets, and when they fall short, they feel disappointed. That’s why, whenever I get a chance to talk to my friends, I tell them: "Instead of dreaming about getting and becoming, dream of doing something." If you focus on 'DOING' something, and let’s say your goal is to reach ten, but you make it to eight. you won’t feel discouraged. You’ll still work toward ten with determination. But if your dream is only to become something and it doesn’t happen, even your achievements may feel like a burden. That’s why we must adjust our mindset in life. Instead of thinking about what I got or didn’t get, the mindset should be, "What can I give? Because true contentment doesn’t bloom on its own; it grows from the depths of what you give. - And I should say that this young kid, one of the things I dreamed of doing is to do this very thing to talk to you today. So this is a very surreal. At 17, another fascinating part of your life, you left home and spent two years roaming in the Himalayas, searching for purpose, for deeper truth, for God. So not much is known about this period of your life. You lived a nomadic, minimalist existence very much like a yogi. often sleeping without a roof on your head, what are some memorable spiritual moments, rituals, experiences from that time? - It seems like you’ve put in a lot of effort. Look, I …. Look, I don’t usually talk much about this, but I can share a few external aspects of it. I grew up in a very small town. Our life was all about being part of a community. We lived among people, surrounded by them, that was just how life was. There was a library in the village, and I used to go there often to read books. Whenever I read something from the books, I often found myself feeling inspired, thinking, why shouldn't I shape my own life like that? That desire was always there. When I used to read about Swami Vivekananda or read about Chhatrapati Shivaji Maharaj, I would often wonder: how did they live? How did they build such remarkable lives? And for that, I constantly experimented on myself. Most of my experiments were physical in nature, testing my body’s limits. For example, where I lived, winters weren’t too harsh, but December nights could get quite cold. But still, at night the cold would bite, it was natural. So, sometimes, I would decide to sleep outside in the open, with nothing to cover myself, just to see how my body endures the cold. So, from a very young age, I would often experiment with my body, and uh, this became a regular thing for me. For me, going to the library, reading extensively, visiting the pond, washing the family’s clothes, and swimming became part of my routine. Swimming was my main physical activity. All of these things were deeply connected to my life. Later, as I read Vivekananda, I became even more drawn to his teachings. One time, I read about Swami Vivekananda. His mother was ill, so he went to Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa for guidance. He would argue with him, debate with him. In his early days, he would often argue with him, questioning everything intellectually. He said, “My mother is sick. If I were earning, I could take better care of her.” Sri Ramakrishna said, "Don't bother me with all this." Go to Goddess Kali. She is there. Ask her for what you need.” And so, Swami Vivekananda went and sat before Goddess Kali's idol for hours, and he immersed himself into deep meditation. After a few hours, when he returned, Ramakrishna asked him, "So, did you request the goddess?" Swami Vivekananda replied, "No, I didn’t." Ramakrishna said, "Go again tomorrow. She will fulfill your request. Ask her!" He went the next day, and then again the day after. But each time, he found himself unable to ask for anything. His mother was unwell, and he needed help, but when he sat before Goddess Kali, he was completely absorbed in her presence. And yet, he could not bring himself to ask for anything. Each time, he returned empty-handed. He told Sri Ramakrishna, "I came back empty-handed. I didn’t ask for anything." To stand before the Divine Goddess and not be able to ask for anything, that moment, that experience, lit a flame inside him. There was a spark in his life, and from that came the spirit of giving. I believe that perhaps that small incident in Vivekananda's life left an impression on me too, the thought of ‘What can I give to the world?’ Maybe true contentment comes from giving. If my heart is only filled with the hunger to receive, that hunger will never end. And within that realization came the idea of Shiva and living beings as one, If you wish to serve Shiva, serve all living beings. Recognize the unity between the divine and the living. True non-duality is experienced through this realization. I would often lose myself in such my mind naturally drifting in that direction. I remember an incident, in the neighborhood where we lived, just outside, there was a Lord Shiva temple. One day, a saint came to stay there. So that saint used to engage in meditation and spiritual practices. I started feeling drawn to him, thinking perhaps he possessed some spiritual energy. I had only read about Swami Vivekananda, never seen such figures in real life. During Navratri, he was fasting, and he had placed Sorghum grains on his hand, a common tradition in our culture. In a way, sprouting seeds on your palms and sleeping like that for nine or ten days. It was a kind of spiritual vow, and this saint was observing it. During those same days, my maternal uncle’s family was preparing for my aunt’s wedding. Everyone from my home was going to my uncle’s house for the wedding. Now, for any child, visiting an uncle’s house is always exciting. But I told my family, "I’m not going. I’ll stay here, and I will take care of Swamiji." Since he has these grains on his hand, he can't eat or drink. So, I will take care of him. So, as a child, I chose not to attend the wedding. I stayed back, serving Swamiji instead. Somehow, my mind was naturally drawn in that direction. At times, whenever soldiers from my village came home during their holidays, They would walk around in their uniforms with such pride. I would run behind them all day, thinking, "Look at them! They are serving the nation." So there was always a strong feeling inside me to do something meaningful. I didn’t fully understand what it would be, and I didn’t have a roadmap. There was a hunger within me, a deep longing to understand life, to explore its meaning. So, I just set out and began the journey. During my time in the mission, I came across remarkable saints. They showered me with love and blessings. Among them, I formed a special bond with Swami Atmasthananda Ji. He lived for nearly a hundred years, a life full of wisdom and service. In his final years, I deeply wished for him to stay with me at the Prime Minister’s residence. But his responsibilities were vast, and he couldn’t come. However, back when I was Chief Minister, he used to visit, and I was fortunate to receive his blessings and guidance. He once looked at me and said, "Why have you come here? You have a greater purpose to fulfill." "Is your priority your own well-being, or is it the welfare of society?" Whatever Swami Vivekananda said was for the betterment of society. He said, "You are meant to serve others." So I…. I remember feeling a bit disheartened at that moment, I had come seeking guidance, but all I got were words. So, I continued on my journey, wandering from place to place. I spent time in the Himalayas, embracing the solitude of the mountains. I met many remarkable individuals along the way, some were great ascetics, people who had renounced everything. But still, my mind remained restless. Perhaps it was my age of curiosity, of wanting to learn, to understand. It was a new experience, a world shaped by the mountains, by ice, by the towering snow-covered peaks. But all of this played a huge role in shaping me. It strengthened me from within and enabled me to discover my inner power. Practicing meditation, waking up in the sacred pre-dawn hours, bathing in the cold, serving people with devotion, and naturally tending to elderly saints, became a seamless part of who I was. Once, a natural calamity struck the region, and I immediately devoted myself to helping the villagers. So these were the saints and spiritual masters with whom I stayed from time to time. I never remained in one place for long. I kept moving, constantly wandering. That was the kind of life I lived. - And for people who don't know that moment in Ramakrishna mission ashram with with the monk Swami Atmasthananda, as you mentioned. He helped steer you towards the life of service. So there is another possible life that could have been where you take sanyasa, you give away everything and you are a monk. So we could have had a monk Narendra Modi and a prime minister Narendra Modi. And he helped you take the decision to live a life of service at every scale. - From the outside, people may call me a leader, some call me the Prime Minister, others call me the Chief Minister, and that's how they see me from their perspective. But deep within, there is only an unwavering spiritual commitment. The Modi who lovingly helped his mother care for children during their treatments, tending to them with patience and compassion, the Modi who wandered through the Himalayas, and the Modi who now works from this seat of responsibility, they are all tied together by the same inner consistency. Every action is dedicated to serving others. People may see a stark difference between a saint and a leader but to me, there is no real difference. Yes, the attire changes, the way of life changes, the words spoken throughout the day shift, and the nature of work evolves. But the core of my being remains unchanged, carrying out every responsibility with the same sense of calm focus and dedication. - Another part of your life of who you are is you've spoken your whole life about putting your nation of India above all else. When you were eight, you joined the RSS, which espouses the idea of Hindu nationalism. Can you tell me about RSS and what impact they had on who you are and the development of your political ideas? - Ever since childhood, I always had the habit of staying engaged in something or the other. I remember there was a man named Makoshi, I don’t quite recall his full name, I think he was part of the service group, Makoshi Soni or something like that. He used to carry a small drum-like instrument called a tambourine with him. And he used to sing patriotic songs in his deep, powerful voice. Whenever he came to our village, he would hold programs in different places. I would run after him like a crazy fan, just to listen to his songs. I would spend entire nights listening to their patriotic songs. I enjoyed it I don’t even know why, but I just did. In our village there was a branch of the Rashtriya Swayamsevak Sangh, where we played sports and sang patriotic songs. Something about those songs touched me deeply; they stirred something inside me. And that’s how I eventually became part of the RSS. One of the core values that were instilled in us at RSS was whatever you do, do it with a purpose. Even while studying, study with the goal of learning enough to contribute to the nation. Even when you exercise, do it with the purpose of strengthening your body to serve the nation. This is what we were taught. And today, RSS is a massive organization. It is now nearing its 100th anniversary. Such a massive volunteer organization likely doesn’t exist anywhere else in the world Millions of people are connected to it. But understanding RSS is not that simple. One must make an effort to truly grasp the nature of its work. More than anything, the RSS provides you with a clear direction toward what can truly be called a purpose in life. Secondly, the nation is everything, and serving the people is akin to serving God. This is what has been said since the Vedic era, what our sages have said, what Vivekananda said, and what the RSS echoes. A volunteer is told that the inspiration he gains from RSS, it’s not just about attending the one-hour session or wearing the uniform. What matters is what you do for society. And today, inspired by that spirit, many initiatives are thriving. Like some volunteers established an organization called Seva Bharti. This organization serves the slums and settlements where the poorest people live, which they call service communities. To my knowledge, they run approximately one hundred and twenty-five thousand service projects, without any government assistance, solely through community support. They spend time there, teach the children, care for their health, instill good values, and work towards improving cleanliness in these communities. Running 125,000 social service projects is no small feat. Similarly, some volunteers, nurtured by RSS, are dedicated to serving tribal communities through Vanvasi Kalyan Ashram. They live among the tribal people, working for their welfare. They have established over 70,000 one teacher schools, in remote tribal regions. There are also some people in America who show there support for this cause, and contribute donations of about $10 or $15. And they say, ‘Skip a Coca-Cola this month, don't drink Coca-cola and donate that money to a One Teacher school instead. Now imagine, 70,000 one teacher schools dedicated to educating tribal children. Some volunteers have founded Vidya Bharati to revolutionize education. Today, they run nearly 25,000 schools, educating around 3 million students, and I believe that millions of students have benefited from this initiative, receiving quality education at an incredibly low cost. Alongside education, values are prioritized, and students remain grounded, learning skills so they don’t become a burden on society. That is, in every aspect of life, whether it’s women, youth, or even laborers, the RSS has played a role. In terms of membership size, if I may say so, we have The Indian Labor Union. It has around 50,000 unions, with millions of members across the country. Perhaps, in terms of scale, there is no bigger labor union in the world. But what’s interesting is the approach they take. Historically, leftist ideologies have fueled labor movements worldwide. And what has been their slogan? "Workers of the world, unite!" The message was clear, unite first, and then we’ll deal with everything else. But what do the labor unions run by RSS-trained volunteers believe in? They say, "Workers unite the world." Others say, "Workers of the World Unite." and we say "Workers Unite the World." It may seem like just a small shift in words, but it represents a huge ideological transformation. The volunteers who come from the RSS follow their own interests, nature, and inclination and in doing so, they strengthen and promote these kinds of activities. When you observe these initiatives, you’ll see how, over the past hundred years, the RSS has dedicated itself with the discipline and devotion of a seeker, staying away from the glare of mainstream attention. I feel blessed to gain life’s values from such a sacred organization. Through the RSS, I found a life of Then, I was fortunate to spend some time among the saints, which gave me a strong spiritual foundation. I found discipline and a life of purpose and through the guidance of saints, I gained spiritual grounding. Swami Atmasthananda and others like him have held my hand throughout my journey, constantly guiding me at every step. The teachings of Ramakrishna Mission, Swami Vivekananda, and the service-driven philosophy of the RSS have played a crucial role in shaping me. - But they've also helped push the idea of India. What is the idea that unifies India? What is India as a nation? What is the foundational idea that unites all of these disparate worlds and communities and cultures? What would it be? - Look, India is a cultural identity. It is a civilization that dates back thousands of years. Consider the vastness of India, over a hundred languages, thousands of dialects. India is so diverse that we have a saying, that every twenty miles the language changes. Customs change, cuisine changes, even clothing styles shift from region to region. From the south to the north, you will see immense diversity across the country. But if you dig a little deeper, you will find a common thread. For example, the stories of Lord Ram can be heard everywhere in India. His name echoes in every corner of the country. But if you look closely, from Tamil Nadu to Jammu and Kashmir, you will always find people whose names include ‘Ram’ in some form. In Gujarat, he might be called ‘Ram Bhai,’ in Tamil Nadu, ‘Ramachandran,’ in Maharashtra, ‘Ram Bhau.’ This unique cultural bond is what unites India as one civilization, Take something as simple as bathing in water. We have a ritual where all the rivers of India are remembered. They chant: "I am bathing with the waters of all these rivers." Ganga, Yamuna, Godavari, Saraswati, Narmada, Sindhu, Kaveri, It's a sentiment that unites a nation. And we have a long tradition of making such resolutions at the beginning of important events and rituals. And the resolution itself can present a historical record. And, in so doing, serve as a way of collecting and preserving historical data. It has been an incredibly unique system, guided meticulously by our scriptures. When someone makes a resolution performs a puja, or even during weddings, we start by invoking the entire universe, beginning with Jambudweep, Bharatkhand, Aryavrat, and gradually narrow it down to the village, then mentioning the specific family, and finally, we invoke the family deity. This practice is still alive, happening daily in every corner of India. But sadly, the Western and global models began viewing nations only as administrative systems. India, however, has had a variety of administrative systems throughout history. Many systems were fragmented, scattered, and varied across regions. Kings and rulers were numerous, but India's unity lay in cultural bonds. Pilgrimage traditions played a key role in preserving this unity. Shankaracharya established the four pilgrimage sites. Even today, millions of people travel from one place to another for pilgrimage. In Kashi, you’ll find people who bring water from Rameshwaram to Kashi and take water from Kashi to Rameshwaram. Even if you look at our Hindu calendar, you’ll find so many things across the country that you can’t even imagine. - If we look at the historical foundation of modern India, along with yourself, Mahatma Gandhi is one of the most important humans to have ever lived. But certainly one of the most important humans to the history of India. What do you admire about Mahatma Gandhi? - As I had mentioned before, I was born in Gujarat, and Gujarati is my mother tongue. Mahatma Gandhi was also born in Gujarat. His native language was Gujarati, too. He pursued a career as an attorney and lived overseas for several years. He had plenty of great opportunities. But the deep sense of duty within him, along with the values instilled by his family, led him to give up all comforts and devote his life to serving the people of India. He joined the struggle for India’s independence. And to this day, he continues to deeply influence the life of every Indian in some Mahatma Gandhi tried to live by his principles, and practiced what he preached. For example, he strongly advocated for cleanliness and practiced it himself. And he made it a point to discuss cleanliness wherever he went. Another key factor to consider is India's fight for independence. India was ruled by the Mughals, the British, and several other foreign powers. Despite being bound by the shackles of colonial rule for centuries, the flame of independence burned brightly in every corner and nook of India, never fading, always fueling the desire for freedom. Millions of people sacrificed their lives so the light of freedom could shine on India They laid down their lives for freedom, sacrificing their youth behind prison walls. Mahatma Gandhi also fought for India’s independence, but in his own way. Indeed, the other freedom fighters were brave warriors, and devoted sons of Mother They came, they fought, and their martyrdom immortalized them. And they did indeed have a lasting impact. But it was Mahatma Gandhi who awakened a nation, leading a mass movement fueled by truth. And he wove even a sweeper into the very fabric of the freedom struggle. He told teachers their work was part of the freedom struggle. He told the people spinning thread and weaving clothes they were freedom fighters. He told those tending to lepers that their service was a step toward India’s freedom. He viewed every task as a vital thread in the fabric of India’s independence movement. And this transformed India's common man into a soldier in the quest for freedom. Gandhi forged a mass movement so immense that the British could never fully grasp it. The British never imagined that a pinch of salt from the Dandi March could spark a massive revolution, and he made it happen. And his life, presence, style, mannerisms, all left a profound impact. And I have seen many of his stories evolve into timeless legends. I recall an incident from a Round Table Conference. Yeah, I believe he was attending a Round Table Conference. He was supposed to meet King George at the Buckingham Palace. Draped in his breechcloth, Mahatma Gandhi made his way to the palace. Many people were amazed that he had showed up in that attire to meet the King. Gandhi remarked he didn’t need to wear a lot of clothes. He said, "Your King is wearing enough clothes for the both of us." This was the whimsical charm of his nature. Mahatma Gandhi possessed many remarkable qualities. His call for unity and recognition of the people's strength still resonates with me. In everything I do, I strive to include the common man and to ensure the participation of as many as possible. I don't believe in leaving everything to the government. I am a firm believer in the power of social change. - So, he was probably one of the greatest leaders of the 20th century. You are one of the greatest leaders of the 21st century. Those two centuries are very different. And you have been masterful in the game, in the art of geopolitics. So, let me ask you—you have found a balance. So, when negotiating on the world stage with super powerful nations, is it better to be loved or feared? It seems like you are a master class of being loved by everybody, but everybody knows and feels the strength. So, finding that balance—can you speak to that balance? - First and foremost, I don't think this is a fair comparison. Mahatma Gandhi wasn't just a twentieth-century leader. His relevance transcends centuries. Mahatma Gandhi's legacy will last for centuries to come, and he remains relevant to date. As far as I am concerned, I have a responsibility to fulfill. Yet, the weight of that responsibility pales in comparison to my country. I am nowhere near as great as my country. And my strength lies not in my name, You see, I recall something that happened all the way back in 2013. It was when my party declared I would be their Prime Ministerial candidate. My critics often tried to corner me on one point. It became a topic of widespread discussion. "Modi is nothing more than a state leader." "What does he know of foreign policy? Does he even understand global geopolitics?" This was on everyone's lips, and I was asked this question in every interview. I gave a very well thought-out answer at I said, "I won’t lay out my entire foreign policy in an interview, nor is it needed." That said, India will neither allow itself to be looked down upon, nor will it ever look up to anyone, India will now see eye-to-eye with her counterparts. This was my belief in 2013, and it still lies at the heart of my foreign policy. For me, the country always comes first. However, to belittle someone, or speaking ill of others, is neither part of my cultural values, nor my traditions. Moreover, our culture upholds and advocates for the welfare of mankind. India has always championed the ideas of global peace and brotherhood. For centuries, we have envisioned the world as one big family. Our noble ancestors envisaged the welfare of the whole world and universe. And that’s why you must have noticed, the nature of our conversations as well as the ideas, that I have presented on the global stage, which are rooted in respect and positivity. For example, I spoke about the environment in one of my speeches. I proposed the concept of One Sun, One World, One Grid. During the COVID pandemic, I delivered a speech at the G-20 Summit. I put forth the vision of One Health, where humans and nature would live in harmony. And I have always worked towards this. We hosted the G-20 Summit with the motto, "One Earth, One Family, One Future." We have inherited this timeless wisdom, and it's our duty to share it with the world. To give you an example, I have advocated for embracing renewable energy. We founded the International Solar Alliance with the motto, "One Sun, One World, One Grid." Even when it comes to global healthcare, I had proposed "One Earth, One Health". This initiative extends not only to humans but also to all flora and fauna. I have always aimed to initiate efforts that foster global well-being. And the global community needs to join hands to accomplish that. We must also understand that the world has become one small village today. No country can thrive in isolation. Today, we all depend upon one another. No one can make it far by themselves. That is why you must learn to synchronize with everyone. And everyone else must learn to synchronize with you. That's the only way to propel this initiative forward. Organizations like the United Nations came into being after the First World War, but they failed to evolve with the times. And this inability to adapt has sparked a global debate on their relevance. - You have spoken about— You have the experience, you have the skill, you have the geopolitical leverage to be the biggest peacemaker in the world today, on the world stage, and there are several wars going on. Can you, maybe, explain how you approach the process of making peace, helping make peace between two warring nations? For example, Russia and Ukraine. - Well, I represent the country that is the land of Lord Buddha. I represent the country that is of Mahatma Gandhi. These are the great souls whose teachings, words, actions, and behavior are entirely dedicated to peace. And that is why, culturally and historically, our background is so strong that whenever we speak of peace, the world Returning to your example, I have a close relationship with Russia and Ukraine alike. I can sit with President Putin, and say that this is not the time for war And I can also tell President Zelensky, in a friendly way, that brother, regardless of how many people stand with you in the world, there will never be a resolution on the battlefield. The resolution will only come when both Ukraine and Russia come to the negotiating table. Ukraine may hold countless discussions with their allies, but it will bear no fruit. Discussions must include both parties instead. Initially, it was challenging to find peace, but now, the current situation presents an opportunity for meaningful and productive talks between Ukraine and Russia. There has been a lot of suffering. Even the Global South has suffered. The world has been grappling with a food, fuel, and fertilizer crisis. So, the global community should unite in the pursuit of peace. As for me, I have always maintained that I stand with peace. I am not neutral. I have a stance, and that is peace. And peace is what I strive for. - Another difficult, historic relationship and conflict is between India and Pakistan. So, it's one of the most tense conflicts in the world. Two nuclear powers with strong ideological differences. You are a great peacemaker. Looking out into the future as a visionary, what do you see is the path for friendship, for peace, for good relations between India and Pakistan? - I would like to delve into periods of our history the world may be unfamiliar with. Before 1947, during the struggle for independence, everyone was fighting side by side, shoulder to shoulder. And the nation was eagerly waiting to celebrate the freedom, the joy of Now, we could have a lengthy discussion on what led to the events that unfolded. But the fact remains that the policymakers of the time agreed to India's partition. And they agreed to the Muslim side's demand of carving out a separate nation. With hearts weighed down by grief and silent tears, Indians embraced this painful reality. However, what unfolded was an immediate, heartbreaking saga of bloodshed. Trains filled with bloodied, wounded people and corpses started arriving from Pakistan. It was a harrowing sight. After getting their own way, we expected them to live and let live. And yet, they chose not to foster a harmonious coexistence. Time and again they decided to be at odds with India. They have waged a proxy war against us. Don't mistake this for ideology. What kind of ideology thrives on bloodshed and the export of terror? And we are not the sole victims of this menace. Wherever terror strikes in the world, the trail somehow leads to Pakistan. Let's take the September 11 attacks for example. The main mastermind behind it, Osama Bin Laden, where did he eventually emerge from? He had taken refuge in Pakistan. The world has recognized that, in a way, terrorism and the terrorist mindset are deeply rooted in Pakistan. Today, it stands as an epicenter of turmoil, not just for India, but for the world. And we have repeatedly asked them what good can come from this path? We have urged them to abandon the path of state-sponsored terrorism for good. What do you hope to gain by surrendering your nation to lawless forces? I've even personally traveled to Lahore in Because even they must be weary of living in strife and unrest. They must have grown weary of relentless terror, where even innocent children are killed and countless lives are destroyed. - Are there any memorable stories from your past attempts to try to improve relations with Pakistan that could guide the path forward into the future? - Like I mentioned, my first attempt at improving bilateral relations was when I invited my Pakistani counterpart to my swearing-in. It was a gesture of goodwill. It was a diplomatic gesture unlike any in decades. The very people who once questioned my approach to foreign policy were taken aback when they learned I had invited all SAARC heads of state. And our then President, Mr. Pranab Mukherjee, beautifully captured that historic gesture in his memoir. This was a testament to how clear and confident India's foreign policy had become. This sent a clear message to the world about India's commitment to peace and harmony. But we didn't get the desired outcome. - Maybe to ask a little bit of a lighter question, who has the better cricket team, India or Pakistan? The two teams have a epic rivalry on the pitch and more seriously given the geopolitical tensions that you spoke to, what role do sports and cricket and football play in fostering better relations? - I think sports have the power to energize the entire world. The spirit of sports brings people together across different nations. That’s why I would never want to see sports being discredited. I truly believe that sports play a major role in human evolution, they’re not just games; they connect people on a deeper level. Now, coming to the question of who’s better and who’s not. When it comes to techniques in sports, I’m not an expert. Only those who specialize in the technical aspects can judge which techniques are superior and who the best players really are. But sometimes, the results speak for themselves. Just a few days ago, India and Pakistan played a match. The result reveals which is the better team. That’s how we know. - Yeah, I've, I've watched the series called the greatest rivalry, India vs. Pakistan, that describes so many incredible players, so many incredible games. It's, it's always beautiful to see a great rivalry. You've also spoken about football. Football is very popular in India. So another tough question, who is the greatest football player of all time? We've got Messi, Pelé, Maradona, Cristiano Ronaldo, Zidane. Who do you think is the greatest football player to have ever played? - It’s absolutely true that many regions in India have a strong football culture. Our women’s football team is performing really well, and the men’s team is also making great progress. But if we talk about the past, back in the 1980s, one name that always stood out was Maradona. For that generation, he was seen as a true hero. And if you ask today’s generation, they’ll immediately mention Messi. Now that you’ve asked, another interesting memory just came to mind. There’s a state in India called Madhya Pradesh, right in the center. There’s a district called Shahdol, a completely tribal region where a large tribal community resides. I really enjoy interacting with people from such communities, especially the self-help groups run by tribal women. So, I decided to visit them and have a conversation. But when I got there, I noticed something fascinating, around 80 to 100 young boys, kids, and even some older youth, all dressed in sports uniforms, standing together. Naturally, I walked over to them. So, I asked them, "Where are you all from?" And they replied, "We’re from Mini Brazil!" I was surprised and said, "What do you mean by Mini Brazil?" They said, "That’s what people call our village." Curious, I asked, "Why do they call it Mini Brazil?" They explained, "In our village, football has been played for four generations. Nearly 80 national-level players have come from here. Our entire village is dedicated to football. They also told me, "When we host our annual football match, nearly 20 to 25 thousand spectators come from nearby villages to watch. I see the growing craze for football in India these days as a positive sign because it not only fuels passion, but also builds true team spirit. - Yeah, football is one of the great sports that unites not just India, the whole world, and that, that just shows the power of what sport can do. You recently visited the United States and, reinvigorated your friendship with Donald Trump. What do you like about Donald Trump as a friend, as a leader? - I'd like to share with you an event that stands out in my memory. Perhaps from that, you'll get a better understanding of the point I'm trying to convey. For example, we had an event in Houston, Howdy Modi. Both President Trump and I were there, and the entire stadium was completely packed. A massive crowd at an event in the U.S. is a huge moment. While packed stadiums are common in sports, this was extraordinary for a political rally. The Indian diaspora had gathered in large numbers. Both of us delivered speeches, and he sat down below, listening to me speak. Now, that’s his humility. The President of the United States sitting in the audience, while I spoke from the stage that was a remarkable gesture on his part. After finishing my speech, I stepped down. And as we all know, security in the U.S. is extremely strict and thorough The level of scrutiny there is on a completely different level. I went over to thank him, and casually said, "If you don’t mind, why don’t we take a lap around the stadium? There are so many people here, let’s walk, wave, and greet them." In American life, it’s almost impossible for the President to walk into a crowd of thousands. But without even a moment’s hesitation, he agreed and started walking with me. His entire security detail was thrown off guard. But for me, that moment was truly touching, it showed me that this man had courage. He makes his own decisions, but also, he trusted me and my lead in that moment enough to have walked with me into the crowd. It was that sense of mutual trust, a strong bond between us, that I truly witnessed on that day. And the way I saw President Trump that day, walking into a crowd of thousands without even asking security was truly amazing. And if you watch the video now, you’ll be amazed. When he was shot during the recent campaign, I saw the same resilient and determined President Trump. The one who walked hand in hand with me in that stadium. Even after being shot, he remained unwaveringly dedicated to America, his life was for his nation. His reflection showed his, 'America First spirit', just as I believe in Nation First. I stand for India First and that’s why we connect so well. These are the things that truly resonate. And I believe that, across the world, politicians are covered so much by the media that people mostly perceive each other through its lens. People rarely get the chance to truly meet or personally know one another. And perhaps, third-party intervention is the real cause of tensions. When I visited him in the White House for the first time, there was already a lot written about President Trump in the media. At that time, he was still new to office, and the world had a rather different perception of him. Even I had been briefed in many different ways before meeting him. But to my surprise, the very moment I stepped into the White House, he broke all formal protocols right away. And then, he personally took me on a tour of the White House. As he showed me around, I noticed something striking, he wasn’t holding any notes, or cue cards, nor was anyone accompanying him to assist. He pointed things out himself. "This is where Abraham Lincoln lived," he said. He even explained why the courtroom was designed so long. He would point at the table and tell me which President signed here and on what date. I found that incredibly impressive, it showed how much he honored the Presidency, And, how respectful and deeply connected he was to America’s history. I could feel that. And he spoke to me freely, discussing many things openly. That was my experience from our first meeting. Later, when his first term ended and President Biden won, four years passed. But during that time, whenever someone we both knew met him, and this must have happened dozens of times, he would say, "Modi is my friend, convey my regards." That kind of gesture is rare. Even though we didn’t meet physically for years, our direct and indirect communication, our closeness, and the trust between us remained unshaken. - He said that you're a much, tougher, much better negotiator than he is. He said this recently when you visited. What do you think of him as a negotiator and what do you think he meant about, you being a great negotiator? - Now, that’s not something I can comment on, since it's his graciousness and humility. It is very kind of him that he openly appreciates me on various occasions, and in different contexts. But about negotiation, I always put my country’s interests first. That’s why, in every forum, I speak up for India’s interests, not to harm anyone, but in a positive manner. And because of that, no one takes offense. People know that if Modi is present, he will strongly advocate for these things. After all, the people of India have given me this responsibility. For me, my nation is my High Command, and I will always honor their will. - You've also had a bunch of productive meetings with several other folks on your visit to the United States, Elon Musk, JD Vance, Tulsi Gabbard, Vivek Ramaswamy. What are some things that stood out from those meetings? Maybe key takeaways, key memories. - Look, I can say this, I have observed President Trump both during his first term and now in his second run. This time, he seems far more prepared than before. He has a clear roadmap in his mind, with well-defined steps, each one designed to lead him toward his goals. I also had the chance to meet members of his team, and I truly believe he has put together a strong, capable group. And with such a strong team, I feel they are fully capable of implementing President Trump’s vision, based on my interactions with them. I met several people: Tulsi Gabbard, Vivek Ramaswamy, Elon Musk, and there was a family-like atmosphere. Everyone had come with their families. As for Elon Musk, I’ve known him since my time as Chief Minister. He was there with his family and children, so naturally, the atmosphere felt warm and friendly. Of course, we had discussions and we talked about many different topics. Now, with his Doge mission, he is incredibly excited about how it's progressing. And honestly, it makes me happy too, because when I took office in 2014, I wanted to free my country from the deep-rooted issues and harmful practices that have crept in, and I'll continue striving to eliminate as many of them as I possibly can. For example, after I took office in 2014, I observed that back then, we weren’t part of many global discussions, not like how President Trump and Doge are being talked about today. But let me give you an example so you can see the kind of work that was done. I noticed that the benefits of certain government schemes, especially welfare programs, were being exploited by so many people who never even existed in real life. There were ghost names, pensions being issued to fake people, widow pensions were being granted even before marriages took place, and disability pensions were given without any real disabilities. Then, I launched a scrutiny process and you’ll be shocked to know what we found. A hundred million people. That’s 100 million fake or duplicate names that I removed from the system. And because of that, We saved massive amount of money. Then I introduced Direct Benefit Transfer, ensuring that every rupee sent from Delhi reached the rightful person without leakage. As a result, my country saved nearly ₹3 trillion that would have otherwise ended up in the wrong hands. Just because of Direct Benefit Transfer through technology, we eliminated middlemen, ensuring transparency in the system. I also introduced the GEM Portal for government purchases, which has helped save both time and money. It has increased competition and improved quality. In India, we had an overwhelming burden of compliances. I eliminated 40,000 unnecessary compliances and removed nearly 1,500 outdated laws that served no purpose. So, in a way, my efforts have been about freeing governance from unnecessary dominance and inefficiency. And naturally, when bold changes happen, just like Doge’s mission, they become a topic of discussion worldwide. - You have, you and Xi Jinping have considered each other friends. How can that friendship be reinvigorated to help deescalate some of the recent tensions and resume dialogue and cooperation with China? - Look, the relationship between India and China isn’t something new. Both nations have ancient cultures and civilizations. Even in the modern world, they play a significant role. If you look at historical records, for centuries, India and China have learned from each other. Together, they have always contributed to the global good in some way. Old records suggest that at one point, alone accounted for more than 50% of the world’s GDP. That’s how massive India’s contribution was. And I believe our ties have been extremely strong, with deep cultural connections. If we look back centuries, there’s no real history of conflict between us. It has always been about learning from each other and understanding one another. At one time, Buddhism had a profound influence in China, and that philosophy originally came from here. Our relationship should remain just as strong in the future. It should continue to grow. Of course, differences are natural, when two neighboring countries exist, occasional disagreements are bound to happen. Even within a family, not everything is always perfect. But our focus is to ensure that these differences don’t turn into disputes. That’s what we actively work toward. Instead of discord, we emphasize dialogue, because only through dialogue can we build a stable, cooperative relationship that serves the best interests of both It is true that there have been ongoing border disputes between us. And in 2020, the incidents along the border created significant tensions between our countries. However, after my recent meeting with President Xi, we have seen a return to normalcy at the border. We are now working to restore conditions to how they were before 2020. Slowly but surely, trust, enthusiasm, and energy will return. But of course, it will take some time, since there’s been a five-year gap. Our cooperation isn’t just beneficial, it’s also essential for global stability and prosperity. And since the 21st century is Asia’s we want India and China to compete in a healthy and natural way. Competition is not a bad thing, but it should never turn into conflict. - The world is worried about a brewing global war. The tensions between China and the United States in Ukraine, Russia, in Europe, in Israel, the Middle East, what can you say about how we in the twenty first century can avoid a global war, avoid an escalation towards more conflict, more war? - Look, COVID exposed the limitations of every nation. No matter how much we consider ourselves as a great nation, no matter how progressive we think we are, or how scientifically advanced we believe we’ve become, everyone has their own way of looking at things, in the end, we all found ourselves on the same ground. Every country in the world faced this reality. At that time, it felt like the world would learn from it. That we would move toward a more unified world. Just as a geopolitical order emerged after World War II, many thought something similar would happen post-COVID. But unfortunately, instead of moving toward peace, the world became even more fragmented, ushering in a period of uncertainty. And the wars have only made it worse. I believe that modern wars are no longer just about resources or interests. Today, I see so many kinds of conflicts happening. Physical battles often get discussed, struggles are happening in every domain. International organizations that were once powerful have become almost irrelevant, no real reforms are happening. Institutions like the UN are failing to fulfill their roles. People who disregard international laws and rules continue to act freely, and no one can stop them. In such situations, The prudent choice for everyone is to let go of conflict and move toward cooperation. And, a development-driven approach is the way forward, expansionism will not work. As I’ve said before, the world is interdependent and interconnected. Every nation needs one another, no one can stand alone. And from all the different forums I attend, one thing is clear, everyone is deeply worried about these conflicts. We can only hope that peace is restored very soon. - I'm not very good at this. - You keep looking at your watch. - No no no, I am barely know what I am doing Prime Minister. I am not very good at this. Okay. In...you have been through your career and through your life you have seen a lot of difficult situation in the history of India, one of them, the 2002 Gujarat riots. They are one of the most challenging period of modern Indian history when there was violence between Hindu and Muslim citizens of the Gujarat that led to over one thousand deaths. It revealed the intensity of religious tension in the region, you were, as you mentioned, Chief Minister of Gujarat at that time. Looking back, what lessons do you draw from that time? And we should also say that India's independent Supreme court upheld twice, in twelve and twenty two they you had no involvement in the violence of the 2002 Gujarat riots. But I was wondering if you could speak to the broad lessons you draw from that time. - Look, regarding you first point, when you humbly said That you don't know what you are doing, that you're not good at this. I disagree and personally feel you've put in tremendous care. You've done extensive research and have dived deeply into every small detail. So, I think you've done very well. And all the efforts you've put in during our conversation, and in all your conversations, are appreciated. And rather than simply interviewing me, I feel you're trying to deeply understand That's why I strongly feel there's genuine honesty in your sincere effort to uncover the truth. And for that sincere approach, I genuinely congratulate you. - Thank you - Regarding the earlier events that you mentioned, like the 2002 riots in Gujarat, I'd like to paint you a clearer picture of the 12 to 15 months leading up to that, so you can fully understand, uh, the atmosphere of that time. For instance, take December 24, 1999, roughly three years earlier: An Indian flight from Kathmandu to Delhi was hijacked, redirected to Afghanistan, and landed in Kandahar. Hundreds of Indian passengers were held hostage. It caused massive turmoil across India, as people faced life-and-death uncertainty. Then, in the year 2000, the Red Fort in Delhi was attacked by terrorists. Yet another crisis struck the nation, intensifying fear and turmoil. On September 11, 2001, the Twin Towers in America faced a devastating terror attack, once again shocking the entire world. Because ultimately, the people behind these attacks are driven by a similar mindset. Then, in October 2001, terrorists attacked the Jammu and Kashmir Assembly. Soon after, on December 13, 2001, India’s Parliament was targeted. Within just 8 to 10 months, these major global terrorist attacks took place, violent incidents that led to bloodshed and the loss of innocent lives. In such a tense environment, even the smallest spark can ignite unrest. The situation had already become extremely volatile. In such times, suddenly, on October 7, 2001, I was given the responsibility of becoming Chief Minister of Gujarat. This was an enormous challenge. At that time, Gujarat was recovering from a devastating earthquake, the largest of the previous century, which had left thousands dead. My first major task as Chief Minister was overseeing the rehabilitation of survivors. This was a crucial task, and from day one after my oath, I immersed myself in it. I was a person who had absolutely no prior experience with government. I had never been part of any administration, never even served in government before. I had never contested an election, never even been a State Representative. For the first time in my life, I had to face elections. On February 24, 2002, I became a State Representative, an elected representative, for the first time. And it was only around February 24th, 25th, or 26th that I stepped into the Gujarat Assembly for the very first time. On February 27, 2002, we were seated in the assembly for the budget session, and that same day, it had been just three days since I'd become a State Representative, when suddenly, the horrific Godhra incident occurred. It was a tragedy of unimaginable magnitude, people were burned alive. You can imagine, against the backdrop of incidents like the Kandahar hijacking, the attack on Parliament, or even 9/11, and then to have so many people killed and burned alive, you can imagine how tense and volatile the situation was. Of course, this was tragic for everyone, everyone prefers peace. The perception that these were the biggest riots ever is actually misinformation. If you review the data from before 2002, you'll see that Gujarat faced frequent riots, curfews were constantly being imposed somewhere. Communal violence could erupt over trivial issues, like kite-flying contests or even minor bicycle collisions. Before 2002, Gujarat witnessed over 250 significant riots. The riots in 1969 lasted nearly six months. So there was a long history long before I was in the picture. But that one tragic incident in 2002 became a sparking point, leading some people towards violence. Yet, the judiciary thoroughly investigated the matter. At that time, our political opponents were in power, and naturally, they wanted all allegations against us to stick. Despite their relentless efforts, the judiciary analyzed the situation meticulously, twice, and ultimately, found us completely innocent. Those who were truly responsible have faced justice from the courts. But the most important thing is, in Gujarat, where riots used to happen somewhere or the other every year. But after 2002, in 22 years, there hasn’t been a single major riot in Gujarat. Gujarat remains completely peaceful. Our approach has always been to avoid vote-bank politics. Instead, our mantra has been: "Together with everyone, development for all, trust from all, and efforts by everyone." We’ve shifted away from the politics of appeasement to the politics of aspiration. Because of this, anyone who wishes to contribute joins us willingly. We've continuously strived to turn Gujarat into a well-developed state, and today, Gujarat is actively contributing toward building a developed India as well. - A lot of people love you. I've got to hear from a lot of them but there is also people who criticize you, including from the media and folks in the media have criticised you over this 2002 Gujarat riots, what's your relationship like with criticism? What, how do you deal with critics, how do you deal with criticism coming from the media or in your own inner circle or just in your own life? - Look, regarding what you said about If democracy truly runs in your veins, you must embrace it. In our scriptures, it’s said: "Always keep your critics close." Critics should be your nearest companions because through genuine criticism, you can improve quickly and work democratically with better insights. In fact, I believe we should have more criticism, and it should be sharp and well-informed. But my real complaint is that nowadays, what we see isn't real criticism. Genuine criticism requires thorough study, in-depth research, and careful analysis. It demands finding the truth from falsehoods. Today, people look for shortcuts, avoid proper research, and skip deep analysis. Instead of identifying genuine weaknesses, they jump straight to accusations. There's a big difference between allegations and criticism. The references you're giving, they are allegations, not criticism. For a strong democracy, genuine criticism is necessary. Allegations benefit no one; they just cause unnecessary conflicts. That's why I always welcome criticism openly. And whenever false accusations arise, I calmly continue serving my country with complete dedication. - Yeah, the thing you speak of, is very important to me because I admire great journalism. And unfortunately, in modern day, a lot of journalists seek clickbait headlines, make accusations because they operate under incentive because they want the headline, the cheap shot. I think there is room and desire and hunger for great journalists, and that requires deep understanding. And it saddens me how often one of the reasons, you know, I don't think I'm very good at but one of the reasons I really wanted to talk to you, is because, I don't see enough high effort, deep dive research, I don't know how many books I've read. I've read a lot in preparing just to experience, just to try to understand. It requires a lot of preparation, a lot of work. And I would love to see great journalists do that more. And from that place, you can criticize, from that place, you can really investigate the complexity of a situation of people in power. Their strengths, their flaws, the mistakes they have made, but that requires great, great, great preparation. So this, I wish there was more of that, of great journalism. - Yes. Clear, well-directed, and specific criticism genuinely helps in the process of effective policy-making. It leads to a clear-cut policy vision. I specifically pay close attention to such constructive criticism, in fact, I actively welcome it. Regarding your point about journalistic headlines, if someone’s attracted by catchy headlines or plays with words, I honestly don't mind that much. But when there's a deliberate agenda behind the actions, and the truth is deliberately ignored, that can cause damage that lasts for If someone focuses on pleasing their readers or viewers with attractive maybe we can compromise a little. But if there's a hidden motive, or if things are intentionally twisted to serve an agenda, that's a serious issue worth worrying about. - And in that, the truth suffers, I think. - I remember once, in London, I was invited to give a speech at an event organized by a Gujarati newspaper there. So, during my speech, I casually said, since it was an event attended by journalists "What kind of journalism should we have? Should it be like a fly or a bee? I explained. A fly sits on dirt spreads the dirt around. But a bee lands on flowers, collects nectar, and then shares that sweetness everywhere. Yet, if something wrong occurs, the bee can sting so powerfully that you’d have to hide your face for three days straight! However, some people selectively picked up just half of my analogy and created a huge controversy out of it. Honestly, was I being negative about anyone? Not at all. I was simply highlighting the incredible strength of a bee, that even its small sting can leave such an impact that can make someone hide their face for days. You can't show your face. That’s the power journalism should have. But unfortunately, some people prefer the fly approach instead. - I now have a new life goal of becoming the bee You mentioned democracy, so— And not knowing much about government until 2002. But to—from 2002 to today, you won eight elections that I could count. So, in many of the elections, over 800 million people vote in India. What does it take to win an election like that, and to win an election of 1.4 billion people, where you get to represent those people in the biggest democracy in the world? - Well, I've been actively involved in politics for years. Before stepping into active politics, my focus was primarily on organizational work. This also included managing elections and strategizing campaigns. So, that was where I dedicated my time. For 24 years, the people of Gujarat and India have placed their trust in me to lead. With unwavering dedication and a deep sense of duty, I try to fulfill the sacred duty entrusted to me by the people I revere as divine. I remain committed to honoring their trust, ensuring it never falters. And they see me for what I truly am. My government is committed to ensuring welfare schemes reach every citizen. Every scheme must reach its intended beneficiaries. Every beneficiary must be treated equally. No one should face discrimination on caste, creed, faith, wealth, or ideology. We must strive to ensure the well-being and prosperity of everyone. This way, even those not directly benefiting, never feel left out or treated unfairly. They find comfort in knowing they, too, will benefit in due course. This fosters a deep sense of trust. And trust is the cornerstone of my governance model. Secondly, my governance flows beyond the ebb and flow of elections. My governance is rooted in the people, not the polls. It is committed to the well-being of my citizens and the greater good of the nation. As you may know, I had once set out on a quest for spiritual awakening. So now, I revere my nation as the divine itself. And I now revere the people as a manifestation of the divine. Like a devoted priest, my heart is set on serving the people. I don't distance myself from the people. I live among them, as one of them. And I tell everyone I work with, "If you work hard, I will work harder." People see this, and it builds trust. Besides, I have no conflicts of interest. I have no friends or relatives who stand to gain from the position I hold. The common man appreciates this lack of vested interest. And that's probably just one reason why. Moreover, I come from a party with millions of dedicated volunteers, volunteers who are completely devoted to the welfare of India and its citizens. They have had no stake whatsoever in politics. They've held no title, nor strayed where influence holds sway. My party is blessed with millions of volunteers who work tirelessly. I am proud to belong to the world's largest political party. And it's not like my party has been around forever. It reflects the hard work of millions of volunteers. Their selfless service is widely recognized and valued by the community. It fortifies people's trust in the BJP, echoed in the election results. I never tallied our election triumphs, but we have had people's blessings. - I was wondering if you could speak to the incredible logistics, that blew my mind, of running…

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