How I sold my company to Pepsi for $2B | Rohan Oza

Every deal on Shark Tag, that's a beverage. I know they're looking at me. Nobody wins the lottery seven times. You got Sharks spitting out the product. You've got a terrible brand name and you pick up 25% of that company. Sold for a billion and a half. Is this just art or is there some science behind it? One of the biggest lines of Robert Woodruff was like he wanted Coke to be within arms reach of desire. Brand is creating that design. One in 10 Americans influence the other nine. The goal is to spot that one. Can you teach us more about how it's done? It's actually three things. One is spotting stuff early. One is building the brands and the other is actually you are you're the brand father. You have been brand you you have been crushing it in the beverage space. I was reading the like research on you the last couple days. I knew about Poppy. I knew about Vitamin Water, but I didn't know the extent of it. Can you can you brag for a second? Give me shout out some of the brands that you've been involved with. I actually have started none of I only co-founded one which is Poppy and I'll tell you that story but the rest I just bought them early or I bond with founders. I think it was like Vitamin Water, Smart Water, they were tiny, Vit Cocoa, even things I lost money on were well known like Pop Chips, uh Vital Proteins, One Bar, Bulletproof, lost money but still no well known. What else we Farmer's Dog, Once Upon a Farm, and then probably Poppy is my sort of most famous one. That's an insane insane roster. It was funny. actually one of our founders who you know um a guy called Gorez who's the co-founder of Jim Connor fine foods was at a we had an LP conference and you know we're so focused on like the brands and the teams and growing stuff and like you sometimes bury yourself in the weeds and you don't sometimes ladder up and he's like bro when you look at the sheet of brands on KVU which is the the fund that I have sort of master had it's insane this ecosystem you've created And I think you you need to do a better job of almost leveraging that ecosystem. And it kind of the light bulb went off cuz he's a founder, right? He's growing an incredible brand. And I part of it is I focus on individuals and sometimes we got to bring the whole gang in to realize the strength of what we have. It's sort of amazing because when a lot of people say the word brand, it's sort of related to taste. And both of those are can be pretty nebulous. But you sort of are like Paul McCartney or John Lennon where like you've made enough hits where you're like, "Okay, is this just art or is there some science behind it?" No, nobody wins the lottery seven times. Yeah. I I mean that's quite high accolades to be in any conversation that used the Beatles name. But there's always luck, guys. It's not like this. You can't you got the dice has got to roll your way a little bit. But if you have a game plan, which I've sort of honed over time, the odds flow in your favor. And so I've, you know, I've created some mantras and some principles and so on so forth that I actually created after the fact cuz you don't go in saying, "All right, guys, I've got five mantras." You almost like you have a few hits. You're like, "How did this happen?" And then I rewind and go, "Okay, this is kind of how it happened." Give us one. What What's one of the first ones you realize like, "Okay, all right, that this is one that matters. We got to put that concrete." Couple of big ones. One is influence the influencer. So you got a pot of money, right? whatever 100 grand, a million, 100 million, whatever you want to spend on your marketing budget. Who do I get to, right? I can't get to everyone. It's not it's not possible at all. You know, unless you Amazon has the budget to get to everyone, but most people when they start a company don't. So, from my perspective, it's one in 10 Americans, and I say America because 90 100% of my career actually is America in terms of success. So, this is the greatest country in the world to be an entrepreneur. I say that everywhere I go. I truly believe it. So in America, one in 10 Americans influence the other nine. The goal is to spot that one. And that has evolved over time. So when I first started doing this, honestly, and I'm aging myself here, but some of the biggest influences, and I'm talking about back in the day with like Sprite even and even Vin Water was radio DJs. Now radio's dead and you guys are the heroes online, right? But before we before you podcast kings came along, uh it was radio DJs. And so at one time in Vegas, I picked an award show annually and I would fly in the top 25 cities and the top two DJs from every city. So you have 50 people coming in and every single artist that came to that award show would want to go to this place cuz you could hit 20 cities in 2 hours. It was almost like the cities came to you versus you traveling. And back then you're releasing an album, a new product or whatever it is. You're right there. And I did it back in the day on a brand called Sprite, a corporate brand, but we did something cool. And then I did that with Vitamin Water where I took on all the DJs in the local markets. And I hired people on my team that felt that vibe because in order to bomb with a DJ, if you're a dork, it's not going to work. So I hired people who kind of in my which is my next mantra, who lived the brand. They didn't market the brand. lived Vitamin Water. That was their vibe. And so that's now evolved today to like the Alex Ears of the world or the, you know, if it's a music, it's the 50 Centers having a amazing resurgence. But now it's digital social media influencers that were the early DJs and the keys to spot that one in 10. So that's been a big sort of philosophy of mine with every company we go into is who is that one in 10? Hey, I want to tell you about something pretty cool. We have a database of all of the unsexy business ideas that have been discussed on this podcast. So, hundreds of episodes the team at HubSpot went through. They pulled out all the unsexy ideas. So, not the super high-tech ones, but the simple, relatable, interesting, profitable uh ideas that we have brainstormed, and they're all available for download for free. Just click the link in the description below. Thank you to our friends at HubSpot for sponsoring this podcast and putting together this free resource for you guys. Back to the show. Can you define what a brand even is? I think a brand is something that allows a consumer to have an emotional connection with a product. So this is just a can gratuitous uh you know product is certain. I drink it. I like the product. Liquid's great. But I got to create an emotional bond with people so they request a poppy. They reach for a poppy. And I worked for Coke back in the day and one of the biggest lines that Robert Woodruff was like one of the godfathers of making Coke what it is today. He said he wanted Coke to be within arms reach of desire. Brand is creating that desire. Right. And then the distribution is putting it in arms reach. Arms reach. You nailed it. Exactly. Sam sent texted me a clip this morning of when Poppy walked into Shark Tank. And at the time they're not called poppy. They're called like mother or mothers or something like that. They're not a soda that tastes good that's like prebiotic. They're apple cider vinegar. So it's amazing cuz it's like you know when there's these documentaries and it's like the dude who followed Kanye around 10 years before he became famous at all and you're like I can't believe we're so lucky that this guy happened to just follow this young artist in Chicago who happened to become Kanye West. And so there's this thing where it's like you see them come to the Shark Tank. I think they have something like $250,000 in revenue. Some some 200 to 400k of of annual revenue at the time. Yeah. Different brand, different drink, no revenue. All the other sharks go out. So, it's you're you're in a bidding war with no one. Yeah. Nobody. Nobody. They uh they go, "All right, sharks, taste this healthy drink." And they make people take a shot of apple cider vinegar and they're like, "This is horrible." And they're like, "Yeah, it is horrible, but it's great for you. Now, what if it could be great for you and also taste good? That's our product, which is it was a really good actually pitch. Yeah. The title of the video is um sharks disgusted by by the poppy like I think Kevin may have spit it out. I can't remember the bit. So, you got you got people sharks spitting out the product. You've got a terrible brand name. Mother's incursive and it looks like a old like um sparkling wine or something like that. Yeah. a totally different formulation and you pick up 25% of that company. I think Poppy sold for a billion and a half or something like that. No, no, come on. North of two, buddy. Oh, north of two. Okay. Unbelievable exit. What happens? And it's amazing that the whole thing was captured. What happens between the time you see it? What are you thinking then? And then what were the things that actually transformed that business? Because I think that's a perfect like case study. Yeah. Let's go to phase one. So these guys come out like every deal on Shark Tag that's a beverage or food but really beverage like I can do the range but beverage is kind of my wheelhouse. I don't know DNA gifted with that. So Beverage comes out like I I know they're looking at me like Cuban's a bigger name than me. Kevin's a bigger name than me. You know Lori's the queen of you know uh digital on and QVC but beverage they look at me and then these guys come out. I'm like here we go again cuz we I'm now three seasons in. I'm like, you know, someone's going to hit me up with some nonsense beverage, you know, and we had some real dumb ones along the way. But this really good-looking couple comes out, you know, husband and wife, like straight out of Central casting, like they look like Sam, you know, like this chisel good-looking, you know, white boy. And uh I'm I'm I'm friends with Steven, and we became friends because I DM'd him and I just said, "We look alike. Want to be friends." I swear to God. He does look a little bit like Stephen. I'm kidding. So this bloody two good-looking guys come out. a guy and a lady. She's like, I don't know, 8 months pregnant. She could deliver any second. So immediately I'm like, they've got hustle. So one, then they pitch the product and I'm like, horrible packaging. I don't like the brand name. You know, I like the word mother, but everyone has a mother. You can't trademark. It's not really a trademarkable thing. But like, let's try it. So that's that's the trains running on that track. Okay. In the separate track in my head, I'm a soda kid. I've been looking for soda. I grew up in Zambia and Africa, right? So in Zambia, we only had three beverages. Coke, Sprite, and Fanta. That's it. But I came off sodas because soda [ __ ] ton of sugar. They're not good for you. They're no vamp. But in the back of my head, I've always been looking for soda I can feel good about. But I didn't go into the show thinking that. But in the back of my head, that's the running track. I try this. Actually, it was this one. Ironically, it was the orange one. And so for me that and it's still this my top two. Orange is my favorite and cream soda is my second. So funny the two flavors I drank when I was a kid. It's amazing what 40 years years later. It's throwing back to the 9 10 year old Roman. Crazy. Anyway, so I try the orange one and I'm like, "Oh my god, this is Fanta meets orange if you guys." And I'm like, "This liquid is in my head takes me back. This is my modern soda." But I don't get excited because I know it's the minute I get excited, these guys get excited. And so I think you were the last one to talk, at least in the edit. I don't know if that's actually how it was, but I thought that was incredible patience to let the other sharks play out before you chimed in cuz obviously you would influence them. Exactly right. I did not. I specifically remained mute because the minute I seemed vaguely excited. And by the way, even then Cuban and Bethany both turned to me and say, "Ro, should we split this?" And I'm like kind of in a nice way, no? Because if this works, which it did, why would I want to split it? And if it doesn't work, I'm fine to lose it. But in the end, the I'm betting on myself. Right. Right. I liked them. Like I like Steven Allison, but that's a very short like like I you know we could go for dinner the next day. I'm like oh god they're horrible. The first thing I did when we got when we became partners I shut it down. I shut down mother and it was a tough conversation. And then basically Steve, Allison, me and a lady on my team called Stevie. We basically co-founded Poppy. There was no Poppy. And in my mind I wasn't focused on an apple cider vinegar beverage. I was focused on making this modern soda for today's youth. And so I'm like, okay, if I love soda and everyone else loves soda, this is modern soda. And so we kind of created the whole modern soda category. But I wasn't thinking apple cider vinegar. And so we shut mother down. Stevie, myself, Allison, Steven, and Stevie took charge of the packaging design. Actually, we then all debated which is the best one to go with. We voted on it, and that's where Poppy came into play. What about the name? We had uh David Plastic come on who who named Blackberry and Swiffer and he he gave us like a master class on naming product. Poppy is a is an incredible name, right, for a soda pop brand. Uh to to find that super easy to say, recognizable, fun. It almost feels bubbly in the name like Yeah. Here's So I'm strategically creative, right? Stevie and my team is what I call tactically creative. That sounds like something I would say when I don't want to do work. It's exactly that. Yeah. She works. Yeah, good one. So, so it's a triangle offense, right? Alison and Steven had created the product. It's a great product, but they their their insight was apple cider vinegar, healthy healthy beverage. My insight is I want soda. So, what's America for soda is pop, right? So, that's it's what everyone in England it translates less. the poppies exploding in in the UK now. But and and Steviey's goal was how does she take what they had created, what my strategic game plan was, and create a name that rolls off the top. And we had a bunch of them. At one point, I even like mom and pop cuz I'm like, it was a throwback to like mom and pop stores and all that. And people told me it was stupid and they were right. But but then when they came out with Poppy and Stevie presented, I'm like, "Okay, right. Can we All right, let's go back." cuz you only invested I think 250 or or $400,000 into Poppy and so it was really small business. You shut it down at half a million in revenue and you rebranded it and restarted it as Poppy. Do you remember what was the revenue growth up until you exited for $2 billion? Yeah. So at at this point I give Allison Steven full credit because mother was their baby and to go to a founder and say good news bad news. Good news you know I'm your partner. bad news. We're shutting down Mother and you know we're now co-founding Poppy together. That takes a lot of faith on their part. And we launched in March of 2020, right? We're all sad. I said, "Guys, I don't want plastic cuz plastic's bad. We can't do glass cuz it's inconvenient. We're going to go back to cans." OG telegraph soda. That's what I drank. You I'm sitting here drinking out of a can. We launched March of 2020. What happens in April? Co. The world shuts down. Yeah. So we we had started to be a more digital company because that's just the nature where life was. But we turboed that because then suddenly all retail was dead and everything became digital and so on so forth. So in our first year we did like a couple million bucks only because the world shut down which is still incredible for that. But then we went from like a couple of million to over half a billion in the next four years. So from 21 to 25 we we exploded. And did you put more money in in the beginning to push marketing or did you guys raise? What did you guys do? Yeah, we kept raising. I mean there's I mean beverage is expensive by the way like I put more money in my fund KVO came in. So my business partner Brett was like look I believe in you. I don't get beverages early. If you get it KVU's going to back it. So we everybody went in, right? And so we kept back here. We raised a chunk of money, but everyone got a great return because of the exit number. It's not really what you get in, it's what you get out at. How much did you raise in some? What I mean all in 40 maybe? Wow. Well, that mean that's amazing to go from I didn't realize you guys were that new. So 20 roughly 2021 to 2025 26 0 to2 billion exit. Yeah. What was the most satisfying win you had? Was it Poppy or was it something earlier? Was there something where maybe even it wasn't as big financially, but just you just were proud of kind of the way you made it work? No, Poppy hands down because Poppy everything else I went there and someone else had a product that I built build here. Steven Allison had created Mother and that it was brilliant. Without the liquid that they had created, we wouldn't be anywhere, right? But I got in early enough to basically co-ound Poppy with me and Stevie, add it to Allison and Steven, and it was amazing. And so I think that was satisfying because I I had the vision from the beginning. I had a great team with Steve, Allison, Stevie, and then we brought in a CEO because at some point I'm not an operator. Allison and Steven super smart, but also realized they weren't operators. And so once we got to like 30 40 million, we brought a guy called Chris Hall in. And that guy's a legend. And I think one of the other lessons you have to learn as an entrepreneur is having a a a founder uh and creator mind doesn't always align with having an operator mind. Sometimes it more often it probably doesn't. More often doesn't. The one guy I think was really good at it was a guy called um Kurt from Vital Proteins. I don't if you know him. Kirk founded Vital Proteins. We partnered with him as well and that guy was he was actually a rocket scientist like legit. So he was a founder and a brilliant operator. So that's you know it's a unique rarity. But in this case we brought in Chris Hall and Chris ran sparkling ice. So I had to spend a lot of time like coaching and uh begging and then convincing and a combination of all of the above to get him over. But he was a game changer because you need to operate and he helped take it from like 50 to 500. Man, it's still amazing how good you are at this. And and I think we should talk about that because there's a handful of skill sets that are you just I call them ATM skills where you just become like a money maker, you know, like if you can um create an audience, you're probably a money maker. If you can sell, you're probably a moneymaker. If you can do good branding, you're probably a money maker. And you've done it many times in a row. Where did you learn how to do this? Because I know you worked for Mars, you worked for Coke. Is that where you learned how to do this? and and can you teach us more about how it's done? Actually, it's interesting you bring up that point. It's actually three things. Um, one is spotting stuff early, right? One is building the brands and the other is actually how to sell them and it's people forget the last part because there there's a there's a big graveyard of brands that have got built got to scale but never fully exited. Uh, and there's a bigger graveyard of those who just didn't go anywhere. And I think part of it so take my learnings. My learnings on Mars were less so because I was in manufacturing operations. So my learning there was almost like the importance of supply chain operations, gross margin, like the boring stuff. But people forget that if you don't have good gross margins, you cannot make money. And if you can't make money, you go bankrupt. And by the way, I've still made that mistake. I had an incredible product called Chef's Cut. It was a jerky before Chomps. Like my buddy invested in Chomps and he and I would joke cuz we were like neck and neck and chefs came out first and I just didn't have great gross margins and I should have focused more on that. Chefs got shut down or got sold for nothing and chomps became a juggernaut and so he keeps laughing at me. But I think from from from that perspective I learned from Moss a little bit, you know, and you still make mistakes. With Coke, I real I learned how to do uh disruptive marketing and branding because I was lucky. I was in Sprite back in the heyday when we, you know, signed Missy Elliot and Kobe Bryant and I did like a bunch of hip-hop stuff and it was it was really cool. And then I was in Power Raid where KO didn't care about it. So they said do whatever you want. So I learned creative disruption early even though I was in a corporate environment and then they fired me because I was a little too disruptive and so I went to Vital and Water and that's where I really start to learn how to and that's my second mantra is how to make brands part of pop culture. There's a lot of guys who report the news. Very few people make the news. And so for me with Vital Water, Smile Water, I started by making the news and that those brands became part of pop culture. That that sounds cool. But what what does that mean, make the news? I don't know. I'm I'm too dumb to understand that. So make the news. So the first influencer, mega influencer ownership deal I did cuz remember everything before 50 was very much a sponsorship deal, right? You sign a celebrity, they get in, that's the deal, right? The equity ownership. Arguably Michael did it in a different way with Nike. So, but that has come out later and it wasn't really well known then. But with 50, I didn't have the money to pay 50. He was huge at the time, right? And so I met with Fifth and his manager Chris Lighty. And actually, there's two guys I was looking at for Vitamin Water cuz Vitam was a great brand. It was a kind of little bit upper east side, you know, New York preppy brand. It wasn't like nationwide cool. It it it wasn't getting shot in the face. It wasn't getting shot in the face cool. Rap about it. Yeah. Exactly. Although it was only eight times cuz one bullet went through twice. But anyway, of course, sorry. Uh, so, uh, I I wanted hip-hop and the two biggest names in the world at the time were Curtis Jackson and the Hova. It was Jay-Z, right? So, those are the two guys who were like the biggest names. And so, I called my buddy Seth Rodsky and I said, "Seth, you're more connected in this world than I am. Who can I get to?" Seth could have got to both, but he had a much better relationship with Chris Lighty, 50s manager. So, he put me on text with 50s manager. A lot of this also for artists, it's their managers getting it. So, Chris got it straight away. He got the product. He got FIF. He said, "We've not done a deal. We're about to do a deal with Reebok, but I'll kill that deal. I'll do this with you." That's how I got connected. And 50, as we see today, is clearly an entrepreneur. H also, don't mess with him because he will come after you with a vengeance. So, I think that he got it and I said, "I got I don't have money, but I can give you a skin in the game." And he immediately said, "Okay, I'm in." And I thought I was going to make him X. I kind of he made 10x cuz I I did the math wrong. Basically, he he got what, like 1 2%, something like that in the company. I can't tell you exactly what he got, but he cuz we have a deal. I don't give the exact number and he doesn't kick the [ __ ] out of me, but um but he made a lot because honestly I gave him enough equity for him to make good money if we sold the company for 400 to 500 million. That was our goal of item water. Like I remember Mikey was the co-founder of Item Water was like, "Bro, put it up as born. If we get to this, this this we're going to get to 150 million in revenue. We're going to sell for 450 without you. You can't reveal it cuz Curtis Jackson will Curtis Jackson do but will is it like would it be crazy to give someone 10% of a company like that? Yeah. 10% will be too high. But but we sold for 4 billion. So you can do the math on you know what he would have made. It seems like that uh you know kind of the influencer influencer thing obviously works obviously makes sense. Uh but also obviously goes wrong sometimes right? Um, you know, for example, this podcast, we got bought by HubSpot. HubSpot was like, "Yo, we we want to reach entrepreneurs. We want them to use our software." So, they went to us cuz we influenced a lot of entrepreneurs. If we influence a million entrepreneurs, we're valuable to them and many other brands. And so, but there's many people who get that partnership wrong. You know, celebrities are busy. They're they're divas. They don't really care. Maybe you didn't make an incentive enough, and it's hard to claw back. So, like, I guess, how confident were you and what made it go right versus go wrong? I think what makes it go right, it happened with 50. Uh it happened with Jennif Anderson on Smartwater and I think it happened most recently for me with Alex Earl on Poppy. Uh and the connective tissue that 50, Jennifer and Alex all share is belief in the brand, creative connectivity like they creatively got the brand and connected with they believed in it. They they creatively connected with it and they went above and beyond. Those are the three things when consumers, because consumers are smart, know, okay, that's the real deal, right? Like, Alex loves Poppy. I see the cool [ __ ] she's doing with it. And also, she's probably the smartest 24 year old I've ever met who actually knows her brand, knows her DNA, makes me feel old. Like, she is on it, you know, love of the brand, cultural, um, creative connectivity, and then going above and beyond. when you're looking at these deals, what would you say are the traits that the winners have in common and what would you say the traits are of the losers? So, for example, we had this guy named Chad who started um Grunes on and he Yeah. So, he sold it for $2 billion. I $1.2 billion in 35 months or something insane. And we were like and he was like basically he was like I called my shot. I worked at a PE firm and I realized that the TAM needs to be big. My CAC to um LTV needs to be 1 to three. Like he he's like I kind of had it down to a little bit of a science. He didn't say it that way, but that's how I interpreted it. What's the science in your head of not for investing, but for building a winning product? Yeah, it's similar. I mean, one, let's start with big categories, right? I at Kavu, our game plan is we're basically trying to in a nutshell upgrade the products that every everyday Americans are using with better quality, right? So, I'm not recreating the wheel. I'm just giving you a better wheel. That makes sense. And so, take the biggest tabs in food, in beverage, in beauty, in pep. At a Cavo, we're like, "Okay, well, you like soda, maybe a Coke or a Found is not good for you. We're going to upgrade you to a poppy. You like pet food, burnt extruded kibble that has very low nutrient value, ain't good, we're going to give you farmer's dog." Right? The goal is how do you give Americans what they're used to, but elevate it so they can feel better about themselves. What are the big tams that are left where you're like, "We still haven't found the winning kind of brand or product in a certain category." Like, if I go to that grocery shop or I go to the supermarket, where do you see the opportunities right now? Which aisle? Everywhere. Let me explain why. Go down every aisle. Next time grocery, by the way, my wife gets super pissed with me cuz she sends me out to get stuff in the grocery store and like 2 hours later like, "Where the hell have you been?" Like, "Honey, this is my business." like my dumbass wandering around the grocery store figuring out what's broker. But that's the scenario. Go down and say, "Okay, would I buy all these products?" And my guess is if you go to a traditional grocery store where most Americans shop today, you'll probably say, "No, no, no, no." Yes. So, you have seven nos before you get to a yes. Go down the candy aisle. Okay. I have a investment in a brand called Skinny Dip. Have you heard about Have you heard of it? Yeah. I love those. Yeah, these are so addictive. Right. But by the almond tam is is okay. It's it's chocolate. It's this almond almond tam is this big. Creating sweet treats that don't have guilt, right? Is this big. So skinny head chocolate a couple of almonds. The brilliance of the founder was after x number of years, she's like, "This [ __ ] ain't working. It's doing fine, but my tam's not big enough." Right. To the point you made with Chad. She pivoted. She created peanut butter cups. She created coconut bites. and she created wafers. You want to name me the three products that do that? Reese's, Almond Joy, and KitKat. By the way, all three of these products sub two grams of sugar. So now I can have and I do a coconut bite every day with my coffee or after dinner cuz I need a with sweet fix, but zero shit's given because it's 2 g of sugar. You don't care. It's 2 g of sugar. You give your kid, you'll have it 10 g, 20 g. Your mind starts clicking a little bit. Is it possible to even be more specific when you're walking around the aisle? Is there a spot where you're like, "This product should be right here on this shelf." And it's not. Or go to the confection shelf and say, "What will I eat?" And I look down. I'm like, "Almost nothing." Cuz everything is fully loaded with sugar and it's really highly processed. So now take the process down. There's a lot of good stuff that's less processed, better ingredients. Can we agree on that? There is. However, the sugar content is still high. So now I evolved from horrible stuff to maybe like an alter ego chocolate or a huge chocolate. They're great, but they still got a high sugar content. So you ask me what I do. I go sit at the entire confection shelf and put my arms up like this and look around. What would I eat? And the only thing that I can eat is skinny and maybe one one other product because I feel good about it. So let me ask you a question. You had this great line where you go um the shelf space is the original algorithm. The same way that content creators are constantly trying to figure out how to get on the YouTube shelf or uh the Instagram shelf. How do I get discovered there, it's even harder arguably because there's a very like mafiaike business practices that occurs in behind the scenes of these shelf spaces. Like I've walked through one of our events that we do uh guys have like brands at Target or or or Safeway or whatever. We walk through and we do store walks and then they explain you know Mr. Beast. He'll explain how the candy aisle works. He'll explain Mars and Hershey's and the tactics they use and what how the color you're color blocking your section etc etc. So you get this sort of PhD in each aisle. I think his market's a little bit different. So you know uh you sell like let's say Skinny Dip is a little higher price point better for you is like the bigger angle whereas you know he's I think the number like the one of the fastest growing brands in Walmart, right? And so his price point has to be a big constraint. So he has to play a slightly different game, but he's doing a lot of stuff with like his better for you isn't in the ingredients, it's in the business practices. So like we don't use child labor and the cocoa farms and, you know, things like that, which is a uh you know, he cares, he's trying to get everyone to care. Uh will it will it change people's purchasing decisions? I think is a question. But the I guess the the thought process is like how do you get the shelf space? Well, I think what so I'll reverse engineer one of the advantage I bring to the mix, right? We talked a lot about influencer and so on so forth. The second influencer and probably as important is retail buyers and I have now established because I brought up run of great products and exits and scale. I have great connections with the top people at Walmart and Target and Albertsons and Kroger etc. And just maintaining those relationships are key because when I bring a product that I've invested in or Kaboo's invested in, they will give us a shelf space. And I think that's a lot of entrepreneurs come to us because they're like, "Okay, great. I can do X, Y, and Z, but if I just get one meeting with the top guy at Walmart, that could inflex, you know, inlect my business in a way that's unique." So, I have the relationships. Now, however, retailers are smart and they are actually closer to the consumer than big corporations. So they are seeking the products of tomorrow while maintaining what I call the brands of yesterday because you can't eliminate the brands of yesterday. Too much money, too much revenue. At the same time, you then also have to bridge to the brands of tomorrow. And Sam, to your point, I mean, take Poppy. I mean, a regular soda is probably a buck for a can, right? A poppy is probably a buck 60, 70, 80, depending where you buy it. 90. Would you pay the extra0 50 cents, 60 cents, 90 cents? Probably. I'm not It's not like I'm buying a, you know, a house a BMW versus I'm buying a a Toyota is like a 20,000 30,000 difference there. Here it's a 30 60 90 cents difference. So a big part of what I do also is when I go to retail is whilst the product might be premium, I still want to try and appeal to a large amount of Americans in their ability to reach those products where they're attainable. And so I think that the the retailers are looking for brands that are attainable even though it's a slightly premium that are the future brands. You said something earlier that was that was kind of important. You go the third thing I do is how to sell it. And there's a huge value swing at the end. I've when me and Sam sold our companies, it's kind of amazing. You work six years, seven years, eight years, and then 50% of the value is going to be how good you are at this M&A thing at the end that you've never done before, but it's the biggest deal of your life. And so I've seen that firsthand how important that is and how it is a separate skill set for an entrepreneur that you're very low repetitions in. So it's hard to even get good at it. Yeah. It's it's a really unfair advantage because a reputable buyer has done this many times and it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter to them necessarily if it fails. They'll just get fired worst case scenario. Uh but for you, it like changes your life completely. Yeah. So, so how do you go get Coke to buy a company for $2 billion? What do you what do you go what do you do? How do those conversations happen? Uh how do you negotiate those deals? And why do they buy them for so much? So, so that's again why I mean I've established and I have relationships everywhere, but you know I have a relationship with a lot of big CPGs, right? Co, Pepsi, Hershey, Manderlays, you know, um, KDP. So, I've done that over time. A lot of these guys I've either worked for, worked with over time, cuz I've been doing this now for 25 years in the industry, right? Maybe longer. And so, relationships with the top guys is critical. And so, you know, uh, with one bar, I walked them in back in the day to Hershey, to the CEO of Hershey at the time, right? I didn't negotiate the Vitamin Water deal. uh the founder of Vitamin Water, Darius, did brilliantly and I learned from him, by the way. So, I'm on the sidelines watching this guy go to town. I brought Ko to the table. So, I called Ko because I used to work for them. Sandy Douglas, a mentor of mine, he brought the CEO, he was the president and they negotiated with Darius and I saw what he did and I learned from that. Out of that negotiation, what was one thing you picked up? If you have a great brand, you it's okay to be slightly unhinged on your expectation. Like when he said the number starts with a four, I almost fell off my chair. I'm like, did he just say four? And I 4B and Coke came out back at 4.1. I'm like, all right, guy. He, you know, I I sometimes you get nervous cuz there's a fine line, guys. This is Sean, you made such a great point. You spend anywhere from four to 10 15 years building your baby and then the finish line is where the where the money is made. And so sometimes you get scared because if you overreach, which I've also done, and you fail, you might be catching a falling knife. But if you underreach, then you keep kicking yourself with how much you left on the table. Dial in on that. That's interesting because a knowing if you have a great brand is actually a bit challenging, but overreach and underreaching that is also very nuanced. Is there like is there like some more specific details that you can give on how you know like for example do you look at comps and you say we're just going to be the top cortile what do you do? Yes, it's a very good quim is everything by the way, right? Like Poppy sold for half of what Vitamin Water did. Except Vitam Poppy grew faster than Vitamin Water is a bigger scale brand than Vitam was. But timing was different, right? At that time there was a willingness and the money was more liquidity was freer and greater to pay more. Right? So and risks were different. So I think the same with tech valuations, right? people were investing in 20 2021 at bonkers valves that slowed down and now AI is also not. So there's a there's a timing mechanism. So you should have belief and faith in who you are. But do not always benchmark against the biggest number you've seen. And that's a danger entrepreneurs have. They're like look this company sold for seven times revenue. I'm going for seven and if I don't get it I'm out. I'm like bro hey take it easy. Beauty's in the eye of the beholder. And at some point when you're ready, you're going to have x number of beholders. And if they say your beauty is 600 million, that's your beauty. Now, you can take a risk and pass and wait for a bigger number, and that's okay. But the groups that pass and wait for a bigger number are few and far between, and they don't always work out. Some do. I also think that there's a there's definitely like a a Jedi Sequa. There's a there's a showmanship that is involved here. It's very I've only I've known you now for uh 57 minutes. You have it. You have a liability, a charisma, whatever it is you want to call it. Are you in the room negotiating these deals? Uh in some I am. So with Poppy, uh we brought it's it's also good to you have to have a banker and bankers have done this, right? So get a good banker, you know, get good rep. So we had Goldman Sachs with with Poppy. I built a great relationship with them. They actually brought Pepsi to the table initially and without getting into it the number and the offer was inadequate. So I did what I said is a risky move which is I walked cuz I didn't like the construct of the deal. Uh and then someone else came to the table. I also walked cuz I didn't like the construct of the deal. And if you probably speak to Steve and Allison, they were probably getting nervous at this point because you know I was blessed to have had exits before. They hadn't had any. And even Stevie was losing it at one point because they're like, "This is life-changing money that Rose saying no to, but I just didn't like the construct cuz it wasn't a full buyout. The the earnouts were and so third times a charm." So when Pepsi came back, I ended up negotiating that directly with them. Did it change your life too? Yeah. It's, you know, you when you have a massive win like this, you always have to step back and realize how blessed you are. not take it for granted. See what you could do for others and those around you. And a good thing for me was I let a lot of people into the deal. So it wasn't just me. I had family, friends. One of my closest childhood friends was in the deal. And so when you affect other people beyond yourself, uh that's that's huge. You know, you said uh a bunch of things earlier that I want to uh ask you like the same question but with a different caveat. So sometimes I'll be like, "Hey, how do you sell this company?" You're like, "Well, I call the guy. I know him." You how do you get on the shelf? Well, they know me and I know them. And like that's true and great and an extreme advantage today, but two two problems. One, you didn't wake up. You weren't born with that. You earned that somehow. Uh and the second is it's not, you know, most entrepreneurs don't have that advantage. If they don't partner with you, you know, just in general, people have to figure out how do you survive? No one's going to come save you. Do you have an insane hustle story from the beginning? Cuz that's what gets me excited. after this I'm going to go work and uh nothing fires me up more than a good hustle story. You have to have hustle at every stage by the way. So I'll give you a poppy story which is later I've had a bunch of exits but I'm still hustling because guess what people change out of roles in corporation. So when I say I know people historically I've used bankers, I've used brokers, I've used people in the industry which you have to use an entrepreneur. You've got to build a relationship with with everybody so that they get you in the room and then when you get your shot, you make it work. So, I'll give a shout out to my buddy Danny Steber. I don't if you know Danny. Danny's a kind of a legend of the beverage industry. I went to the beverage forum. Just finished yesterday. It's probably the best beverage conference in any beverage entrepreneur should be there. It's the best beverage conference in America. And I I went there two years ago and Danny said, "Ro, would you speak?" I said, "Yes, I'll speak, but there's a button in this thing. I need a Walmart and a Target meeting while I'm at your conference." And he had some of the lead guys from Walmart and Target. They don't know me. Like, I mean, they know of me, but it's not like just cuz I walk in, they're still Walmart. They're like, "Go, screw you. We're Walmart." And so, I went in and I danced. Me, Allison, Chris Hall, the the CEO, and I danced. And I danced the modern soda dance because we were sucking wind at Walmart. We were doing everything else. And I'm like, "This is my one shot." And I came in and I painted the vision. I said, "Guys, this is not prebiotic soda. This is modern soda for tomorrow's generation." And I made a full story. And the light bulb went off at Walmart's head. And the head buyer, Will, amazing guy, went away, believed in the vision, got behind it. His boss Melanie was a rockstar at Walmart. accelerated it from 2025 into end of 24 and Poppy did this. That was the moment Poppy went into explosive growth mode and I'm doing the hustle. I'm doing the dance. And by the way, I've been very successful. But if you come in with an ego and you're not willing to dance with retailers, regardless who you are, they don't give two shits. I know that uh Kavu is incredibly successful now. I know that I I believe it's many billion dollar funds. You've had multi-billion dollar exits. And I know that you started like in the Mars factory like I think you said counting M&M's. The show is called my sorry Twix. Uh the the show is called uh My First Million. I don't know like the middle ground. What did you do to make your first million? Because was it investing your own money in brands? Was it because you got equity in Vitamin Water? My first million. So I got fired from Coke um too creative disruptive and I went to this no-name company called Vitamin Water. In fact, I send a bunch of product to my friends and they didn't even drink it. That's the pilot brand, by the way. They didn't drink it and two years later, the same jackass has called me, "Ro, Vitamore is huge. My kids love it." I'm like, "Dude, I sent that to you two years ago. You never said [ __ ] to me." Anyway, so I put my own money in. I borrowed from my dad. So, I'm broke as a joke and I borrow from my dad and I get equity. And so, I went from, you know, fumes on my bank account because I was basically spending everything I was making to the Vid Water exit. And that was my first million or more than that, but it was putting everything that I had. And I think that's honestly where you make a big bet. You put everything into it and if it works out, that's kind of where you get your biggest paydays. Did you raise money for a fund right after that? Were you like, I did my own thing. So I did Vitamin Water Smart Water. I exited. I had my own money. So what's the phrase they say? You invest off your balance sheet. Some [ __ ] finance phrase. So anyway, yes, I invested off my balance sheet. meaning I went in solo Rohan into Vit Coco into buy into Pop Chips and Stevie was my right-hand wingwoman in this case and so she was my she learned marketing from me. We did it together and now she's the head of marketing for Carvoon. That's really interesting. And what I'm asking is really personal. So you can avoid it or you can give as much information as you want. But I find that to be cool and there's a lot of people listening who are like I would like to make a little bit of money and spend a little bit of money doing what this guy's doing. That's badass. I don't want to start a fund yet. Are you able to give any type of numbers as to what you had when you started investing in Pop Chip and all these companies? Yeah, I I can give you a range. I was investing anywhere from probably half a million to 2 million. That's a shitload for an angel investment. Yeah, I wasn't that smart, dude. I was a little bit unhinged. I, you know, longterm I've worked out great. I don't advocate you go that heavy. Were you really rich? No, I was just I was a I think I bet on myself a little too much. So, yeah, I had a lot more money than that, but I think you have to be willing to lose if you're going to win. Did you tell yourself like, "Okay, I'm I'm willing to lose 10 million bucks, but I'm going to bet I'm going to bet on myself to go make a few concentrated bets." Did you Did you sort of mentally partition like this is losable money, or you just you were just going and you didn't even think about it? There's a lot of stress. So, basically, I was kind of doing the math. I'm like, "Okay, I'm in for this. I'm in for this. I'm in for this." And then like you know x years later I'm like well you know I'm in you know I'm in for 10 but I've made you know 10 times that so I think I'm good. You know what I'm saying? So it's like it's organic like you know caveman math. I like it. What percent what princ for for the principal not the markups? What% of your liquid net worth was in private deals? Yeah a lot. I also I really should have done a better job with my publics. I was very like into my privates cuz I had made my money on private. So it far too high. Was it like all? No. No. Was Barry bought a third though. I mean like Okay. I don't know. Like I don't know. It was a decent amount. I can't remember exactly. I was rolling heavy. I was like in my 30s and like Pop Chips was a great brand and I bet on that but I didn't understand the importance of a prep stack there. So you were just like making bets and then like going out and hustling on your behalf. You're like hey I'm going to beverage forum and I'm just going to figure out how to wheel and deal a little bit. Yeah. I was working with these companies like I would help the Pop Chips guys with influencers. We you know or with marketing or team like I'd bring in the head of sales or the head of marketing or you were free you were like a free hire a little bit. I was Yeah. I was like I'm like let me in. I'll help you out. Sometimes I got equity for helping. And so the good news is my hits in in Vit Cocoa the coconut water by Vital Proteins and Poppy far outstripped whatever I lost. So the the the order of winners was Vitamin Water. You did that with you did it with Smart Water and then what was the order the next five deals? Uh I did Vitamin Smart that I did Vitam Coco the coconut water which is great. Kan's an incredible operator. Did that exit? [ __ ] The guy's got worth the company's worth two and a half billion on the public stock market. Oh wow. I didn't know that. Okay. With a thing like coconut water, right? Uh like my my business partner Ben, he's been trying to get me to drink freaking banana water. He's like, "Oh, banana water." And I it's nasty. I can't believe he likes it. But he's like, "Banana water? That's the next coconut water." I'm like, "I don't think it is." How do you spot the real trends versus the false trends? Are you just trusting your own taste buds or is it some research you're doing? Are you watching what high schoolers are doing? Like what what are you doing to figure out real trend versus fizzle out trend? Yeah. Taste buds and tam. Coconut water wasn't a coconut water tam. It was a hydration tail, right? Taste buds. Maybe it's bad cuz I'm of Indian origin. I like coconut water. But look, let's be honest. I got in early. I got out at a $700 million valuation, right? So, I got in at, I don't know, 30. So, I made 20 times my money. The thing's now worth north of2 billion. So, I didn't have the vision that Mike has, who's a CEO founder, that this could be north of a $2 billion public company. No chance. I had that vision. I was because to me the tam was limited by the taste of coconut water in America. So I sometimes knowing where to hold them, knowing when to fold them. So I got out I made good money. I can I will never begrudge the money that I could have made but I got it. So I was out on that one. But then, you know, but then I got into buy and I uh rode by all the way and the founder Ben is super smart and he I got him introduced to KDP and he built a brilliant relationship with the CEO of KDP and then sold that for 1.7 billion. I think one of the great tests of marketing is can you sell water? How do you sell water? Right? What's this the the there's a marketing genius about figuring out how to sell water and not just once how to sell it many times in many different ways. And so I've only done one water by the way. I've done many beverages but only one water. Okay. Well, so vitamin water, not a Yeah, vitamin water is flavored, right? Poppy is flavored. Vit cocoa by They're all flavored. Like when you just straight water, I still don't know how the hell I did that, but um I'll take a crack. The founder Darius has created V smart water with a really good story which is vapor distilled water. It's how water is made in in the world, right? Water evaporates from the ocean, goes up, hydrogen oxygen separate, all the impurities fall out, it comes back to earth, that first drop of rain water before it enters the atmosphere, before it hits the ground, that's pure water. So that was the initial vision behind Smartwood. The packaging was not great. It was invisible. So I redid the package. The current package was me and my team. It sits on shell today. Then we did the influencer strategy and I felt that Evian was the only player in America that was in premium water but it's a French company. It was in plastic being shipped across the ocean. It didn't make sense and neither did Fiji being shipped from basically Fiji. Like why can't we have a premium American water that has and the thing is your water is a badge. When you walk around with the water more than anything else it's a little bit of a reflection of you, right? That's why at home, who cares? You buy the case packs at Costco and 24 packs for like $2, but when you're walking around, you want a little bit of a a different badge. And I think with the team, I had the Jennifer Anderson became the face of the brand, the the new packaging we did, Smart became this like goto accessory particularly for women, and the brand took off. But I think when Coke bought Vitamin Water, if you ask them today, the brand that that has worked out for them is Smart Water, not Vitamin. And is what is there something to this idea of placement? So like I remember when Beats by Dre came out and it was this headphone brand just like many other Bose and others, but instead of going for audio files, everywhere you saw it was basically hip-hop artists and athletes walking into the stadium. and it became like synonymous with like the pregame lockin associated with the coolest athletes and and and artists and like that was they created billions of dollars of value by by that association and that placement of the pregame of the walk-in at least for me um and I think that I've read stories about Grey Goose and and some of the liquor brands where they would put it in the limousines of the afterparties of the Oscars and just where it was seen was almost just as important as the story of how it was triple filtered and distilled cuz nobody actually ends up knowing that [ __ ] They just see where it's seen. Um, did you ever use that tactic or what is that? That was huge for me back in the day. So now this strategy is done really through social digital, right? So digital influencers when when the all top sororities are running around posting Poppy and having it at the sorority kickoff parties. I have an army of amazing college ambassadors and poppy is the number one drink on college campuses. Modern day like Red Bull playbook basically. Yeah. But it's kind of a better for you feelgood vibe and definitely what's better for women than you know like from a from a connection standpoint. So but back in the day I did this with the Oscars with the Golden Globes. Smart Water was the first water on the table at the Golden Globes before they were pouring out of just the and so I did a deal with them. So suddenly every table you go to you're seeing a smart wound there. And then Vitamin I used to sponsor mainly cuz I wanted to go to the parties. So Patrick Whitel I Patrick is too big time now. But Patrick in Denver both the coolest post uh Oscar parties um uh Oscar and VMA Golden Dog parties in LA. So just for me to get access to those things I would sponsor them. But the good news is all the like I remember going to one and it was back in what I call round one of JLo and Affleac dating and I was at the party and like JLo and Affleck are there and everyone's drinking Vitamin Water back then. This is like 2003 you know 2004. So I think you're dead right in the early days the the especially with products they've got to appear in people's lifestyle areas as both physically and digitally. You're a hustler. I didn't I didn't realize how big of a hustler you are. If you lose your hustle, you lose your edge. Like the guy who Sean and I know, Gulz, who is the CEO of uh Jim Connor Fine Foods, like he's like, "Bro, you are bloody intense." Like when I get into sessions with him, he's like, "I thought you would just chill out. You're a father. You're successful." I'm like, "Bro, it's go time. Like we're building your empire. Let's, you know, there's no uh you got to have a hustle mode." And I think also founders respect that. So I want to ask you a little bit of a different question. I'm obsessed with brands that last a long time. I'm also a massive American history buff. And some of the best brands in America, you know, they've been around for over a century. Coke, Snickers, M&M's, like brands that you've worked with. I think Mars is like a $50 billion a year business that's familyowned. Hershey's is run, I think, run by a family trust. I think they do something like 10 or 20 billion a year in revenue. And these brands, you know, everyone talks about getting healthy, but like Reese's probably isn't going to go away for the next 50 years. Coke, it's probably not going to go away for 100 years. And also, you've worked with startups. Is there anything that I or Sean or the listener can learn uh from these old big companies that have been around for 100 plus years? Yeah, look, they do a very good job of two things. Uh they're managing their installed base. So, they have fantastic retail presence and they do in my opinion when I great marketing to maintain relevance for their brands. It's almost shocked how well they do it. In a world where technically you shouldn't be eating or drinking any of those products. However, where they are smart and I give Pepsi credit for this, they do go out and buy the future as well. Like Pepsi bought Poppy not because it's a apple cider vinegar beverage because they're seeing the vision. This could be right up there and they've said it to me between like Pepsi, Mountain Dew, Poppy. That should be their their Sona lineup. And choose what you want. If you feel like having a Pepsi, great. And by the way, the growth is all coming Sam from their zero sugar product. So it's not coming from core Coke or core Pepsi. It's Pepsi Zero. Yeah, correct. Pepsi Zero is crushing it. Coke Zero's crushing. And so Poppy fits into that realm. So they see that you still maintain your legacy, but you have to make sure you pick up the future otherwise you will get left behind. And so I think you're seeing it like Unilver bought your boy Grunes, right? Like that they're buying the future. There's a lot of M&A. Hershey just bought lesser evil like that they are buying the future and I think they but they're getting a little savvier and a little wiser in how they do it before they would build get brands that I don't think were built to last. And now to your point Sam I think they're trying to find brands that are built to last. And for me, if we look at all the exits we've been a part of, whether those brands continue growing 40% or just maintain a good scale, Vitamin, Smart, Poppy, Vital Proteins, Buy, Farmer's Dog, like all these are still Once Upon a Farm, you know, we IPOed that brand. We they're all still there and they they will be here if managed right for the next 10, 20, 30, 40 years. Sean had a good question that he was telling me that he had for you, but I'm going to ask it. And uh He hasn't got he hasn't gotten to it yet. The kind of guy I am. He hasn't gotten to it. Listen, he's a gifted. Yeah. I'm going to steal it from him. And uh it was basically um if a young guy were to go and shadow you, what would they be uh surprised about how you spend your time? Shadow you for like a day or a week. Yeah, it's a great question, Sam. So, a few things. I think what allows me that I think they will be a little surprised of how I can change lanes so rapidly. So part of my success and part of my failures h around my ADD. So I can go from five different company conversations with different founders to then figuring out the plumbing problem in my house to the new house that I'm trying to buy but getting screwed on with the price. Like I can change lanes and gears very rapidly and be fully engaged and but by the end of it I'm I'm exhausted, right? my brain shut off and then I have to watch TV to unlock to to sort of calm it down. So one of the things I'll find is how I rapidly able to change change lanes. The second thing is even though I personally don't operate at a detailed level personally they'll be surprised how detailed I get with the brands and part founders I partner with because I have great recall of information and so they're surprised sometimes the founders think I've forgotten something from like a month ago when I asked him about it. You can ask he's a classic but I'm like three weeks ago we spoke about this where are you on this? He's like, "Shit, how did you remember that?" He thought because I forgot to come back, he could ignore me. And so my ability to recall and retain info because you have to go deep with founders because if you go shallow, you're not helping them out. It's got to be meaningful stuff that helps impact their business. And the third thing um is I'm blessed to be living a great lifestyle. I you know, I'm living the American dream, right? I'm an immigrant that came here and and did well, but I also am able to do high low, right? So, from where I eat, I mean, I'm, you know, the taco stand or where I where I go, I go and do the grocery shopping. I'm not sending someone. I'm like, I'm there. I'm picking stuff up. Cuz I think if you don't live in reality, you you you then can't operate in reality. You kind of end up in this 1% world, which doesn't help uh when you're dealing with products that deal with all all Americans. I was talking to a buddy of ours who's a a brilliant marketer. You probably sold a billion dollars of products online and he uh I opened up my laptop and he saw that I had ad blocker on and he's like, "How could you?" He's like, "You're a marketer." He's like, "You have study your craft. Through every ad." He he logged another guy logged into his Facebook and he's on Facebook. He's a woman. Uh like his profile is his, but he told Facebook, "I'm a woman." Cuz he's like, "I want to see what they're marketing to a 40-year-old woman in America." That's that's the prime target. I need to see who's what's the messaging? And I was like, there's levels to this game of intensity and detail. What do you stink at? Where's your weakness in business? I think sometimes I may have too much belief. You know, when you love a product and you like you kind of have faith that blinds you a little bit to the to the whether it's the whether it's the founder you you think is amazing or whether you love the product and you're not overly focused in the gross margins because you know I'm a big field of dreams guys. Build it and they will come. But if you don't build it correctly, I feel the dream won't come. And sometimes when I love something a lot, I end up um ignoring some of the red flags. So I think uh passion is a super important element, but passion at all costs can be dangerous. Let's leave it with this. Uh while we're in the business of stealing questions, Patrick Oshanesy has this great question he asked the guest at the end of every one of his uh Invest Like the Best episodes. And he he asked the guest, he said, "What's the kindest thing anyone's ever done for you in your career?" And I'm just curious what what what comes to mind when I say that like what's the kindest thing anyone's ever done for you? Kindest thing anyone's done for me? I should shout out to a guy. I was u it's probably two of them. I've been adopted a couple of times. One time uh was at uh Coca-Cola when I was about to leave cuz they gave me a brand called boxier. You know that like remember I told you I have a few mantras. One of my mantras influence the influencer the other has become a part of pop culture. The third one is live the brand. Well, I can't live box root beer. I don't understand it. I grew up in Zambia. I bloody hate root beer. So, I was on Sprite. Someone demoted demoted me. Uh, and I ran box and two guys and I was about to leave and my career would have been toast cuz I was going to some travel.com [ __ ] site that ended up folding and uh, two guys, a guy called Todd Potman and a guy called Daryl Cobin kind of heard they were leaving, saved me, said we'll give you something different, don't leave. They put me on Power Raid and that changed the trajectory of of my career once and then when I got to Vitamin Water I was doing great. I took over all the marketing. But you the founder and I kind of had different visions on how to market. Um, and I don't think he liked my approach, but I was what was bringing the heat to the brand. And I think he wanted to fire me at one point. And so Mike, who was the president of the company, changed reporting structure and put me under him so that cuz he and I got on great. He said, "Ro, look, take ego aside. either you want to report to the CEO and get fired or report to me and I got you because now you're my guy. And so I said, I want money, I don't want ego. So I reported to Mike and I still ran marketing, but had the founder could have hired me, right? I I was an employee at will. Um that would have also changed the tra trajectory of my career. So So this is only the second podcast that you've done. Is that right? Yeah, correct. Dude, thanks for coming on. Where should people go find you if they want to follow more or, you know, get get more of what you're doing? You know what? It's it's a really good question and it's a horrible answer. You actually can't go anywhere yet other than you guys and one of you don't have social media. Subscribe to this podcast if you want to see him again. The last one that was like that was Brian Johnson. He came on and he was just he was just hacking on his own body and his own privacy of his own home and then he came on this podcast and uh so you know maybe you'll have a Netflix documentary soon. I don't know. Maybe I can I can reverse age by 20 years. My wife would love that. We were uh we were his first podcast and you know Sean, I don't know if I ever told you this. He uh called me last year and he goes, "Hey, I just wanted to thank you because you were the first podcast that I ever did and you guys asked me a lot of really hard questions that I never even I never even thought about. Uh and so a I'm thankful for you for doing that and b when I saw the response I was like, "Oh, I should do media, right? And I should go hard. This works." It's crazy. And look what he's done. So you guys are the influence about remember the one in 10. You are the one in 10, guys. My uh my contrarian belief about Brian is is that Brian Johnson is the greatest marketer alive right now. Possibly. Um I think he understands social media at a level that uh I don't know anybody else does. It's kind of cool maybe. But yeah. Yeah, exactly. Well, thanks. Thanks for coming on. You're awesome. Pleasure. Thanks for taking the time. All right, that's it. That's a pod.