Meet Kari Amelung, Inspiration for Homeland (Full Episode) | Inside the CIA | National Geographic

-There was no CIA website when I applied. I really didn't have a good concept of what I would be doing. Then all of a sudden, I find myself in a situation that felt like it was straight out of a movie. They take me to a perfect interrogation cell. I'm in the cell, they're with me, I start fighting. -She wanted me dead, Saul. She tried three times, anything to stop me from getting a look at those hack documents. -I don't know if it's well known, but the Carrie of Homeland is based on the Kari of this story, and the Kari of this story is as aggressive, as focused as portrayed in that show. -My job was to recruit spies and steal secrets. [camera clicks] In a warzone, there are lives on the line so, there's a time clock. You could get the information that helps somebody live tomorrow. You feel a lot of pressure because if you get it wrong, there is a possibility that it could be life or death. [ ♪ theme music playing] [Kari] So, when I arrive in my second assignment, it is in the Middle East region. Frank, my colleague, and I, we're gonna go out and meet an asset. As far as we could tell, no one sees us, and we go up this back flight of stairs. Up to the floor where the asset lives. An asset is a person who has agreed to work with the CIA in order to provide information. My name is Kari Amelung. The CIA's mission is to get the hard stuff, get information, and the very hardest things to get are the plans and intentions of world leaders. So, I'm hoping that our asset has the best information and the secrets that we need that will keep our country safe and, you know, protect people's lives. In most countries, if an asset gets caught, they, at a minimum, would go to jail for the rest of their life. At a maximum, they will be executed for treason. And, about at the point where I get the camera set up, I hear like... [loud thud] ...thud. And like the sound of feet, and people yelling. They bash the door in. About six guys come in, and they start yelling, you're spies, what are you doing in our country? But wait, let me start from the beginning of this story. I'm standing in this country, I've never been, surrounded by people that speak a language that I have just learned, and that was when it hit, you know, this is for real. In a lot of ways, I was prepared through training, quite well prepared. And sometimes, even, I didn't understand how good that training was until I needed it. -The training can be very valuable. One of the most important things is just situational awareness. Every city in the world, every country in the world where we conduct operations is different. My name is Glenn Corn. I am a retired, uh, CIA officer, and I was an instructor at the CIA's training facility. Many people know it as "the farm." Officers go there to learn the operations side of the agency. What is espionage? What is counterintelligence? What is surveillance? How do you identify it? And by the way, when you finish that training, you have a high school diploma in espionage. It takes years of being in the field and actually running operations before you get your bachelor's degree, your master's degree. -Despite how good the training is, there's nothing like actually doing it for real life. -Kari is an exceptionally gifted officer. I developed a level of trust in her capabilities before she even showed up at the station. My name's Robert Richer. I was Deputy Chief of Station, the number two in the station, in the country where, uh, Kari was posted. We were in French training together. So, we used to go running at one of our training locations. And we had great conversations about operations. Getting to know each other. I'd also done my homework. I'd seen where her prior assignment was. I saw what she'd done in her prior assignment. [Kari] My first assignment, it was the end of the Cold War. I'm 23 years old; the learning curve was like this... You don't know if your home is bugged, your car, you really have to be always aware of, you know, where you are, what you're saying, who might be listening. But there was also the advantage of, you know, being young, female, American. I could crash any diplomatic reception that I wanted to. I just put on nice clothes, look the part, be confident. You just show up, and if you can draft on somebody, "Hey, how are you doing?" And start talking to someone, walk in with them, then it looks like you're their date. And then you can work the crowd. [Glenn] In espionage you, have to live a double life, you have to lie, you have to deceive people sometimes, you have to manipulate, you have to build relationships and networks. -I would befriend somebody who looks like they are kind of "big man on campus" in the diplomatic crowd. Draft on them to meet the person that I wanted to meet. And that was actually better, because then you were sharking, sort of with somebody in front of you, hiding you a little bit. I had quite a bit of success that way. -For me, a 'journeyman' officer is someone who's learned the craft, they've executed their craft, and they're able to do it without supervision. So, I knew I had a, uh, almost a journeyman officer, and usually we won't consider someone a journeyperson officer until they've had a couple more tours. No, she was there already. [Kari] So, when I arrived at my second assignment, I was all of about 25 years old, but I felt like I walked out of my first assignment with skills. So, I'm feeling a little nervous but I, I, at the same time, I'm feeling prepared. [Rob] She was working in the Agency at a time when female case officers had to work twice as hard to prove themselves as anyone else. And remember, this is at a time when Desert Storm is picking up. [explosions] -Iraq invaded and took over its tiny neighbor, Kuwait, today. That set off worldwide protests and drew sanctions from the United States, Great Britain, and the Soviet Union. [Rob] So in the wake of Saddam's Iraqi invasion of Kuwait, the US stood up to defend the area from further expansion of that aggression by Saddam. There was concern that they may go from Kuwait to Saudi Arabia, or somewhere else, and at the same time to come up with the coalition to push him out of Kuwait. So, it was very tense. While the coalition included Arab countries that were allies, there were also Arab countries that were, uh, less inclined to support Desert Storm, and to support our work against Iraq. So, we still had to collect information on the host country's intentions and what they're doing against us. [Kari] The whole station was kind of in a turnover, you know, 'cause assignments are two to three years in a lot of places and, so, in this case, when I arrived, within days the new Chief of Station came in, and I was, I, I'm pretty sure the first female Ops Officer that had been in this country, and she, for sure, was the first female Chief of Station that had been in this part of the world. -So, the Chief of Station is generally more experienced, has had multiple tours, comes in to give guidance and leadership, but also to meet with the host country's Intelligence Services. And the host country's Intelligence Services did not like meeting with her. She's a woman, so the, so she came into a, to a boiling pot. [Kari] We were not particularly welcome in that country at that time, so that compounded things; it was a different kind of challenge. In this case, you know, the biggest American presence was at the US embassy in this country, and so, that was often the center of, of protests. For example, people took the yolk out of an egg, and they filled it with acid, and they would throw it at your car. And people might follow you, for not reasons of espionage but for reasons of harassment. I would walk down the street and people would, you know, intentionally bump into me, um, try to elbow me in the chest. It wasn't particularly safe for a Western woman alone. And, the nature of my work, of course, was to be alone at night, on the streets or in my vehicle. So, you had to manage that as well. At one point, Rob pulls me in and says Pat, the Chief of Station, wants you to take this asset. Because I learned, Frank, the guy who's handling the case now, is departing in two months. [Rob] So we talk to Kari, we talk to the other officer, and they arrange to make a turnover. And a turnover is when one case officer hands the other agent to another case officer. And turnovers are actually when you cement a relationship with an asset. [Kari] Frank tells the asset, look, I'm leaving the country, but I'm gonna introduce you to a very experienced female officer, so the guy isn't surprised when a woman walks in in this, you know, part of the world which he hasn't seen before in this context. This asset had been a long-term asset, and he had access to a lot of documents from his government that were of interest. And, at that point, countries in that area of the world were kinda picking sides, like you were either you know, with the Kuwaitis and us, or you were with the Iraqis. It's always really good if you can get an asset who can provide you documentary information, like official documents. If you get an asset that can tell you things then that's, that's great too but, to have the proof of like, okay, I can see this document with an official stamp, and it looks like others that we've seen, it helps to validate that this is good information. Hopefully, the intelligence will help us in understanding what the government was thinking, and in particular, at this time, were they helping Saddam Hussein? So, I had probably spent two to three weeks preparing for this first meeting. And, as I'm doing this, I notice something really strange about this case, was where they were holding the meetings. I think they're meeting this guy in his apartment. How can that be? You know, that's not what we were trained to do. I'm thinking, this is weird. -Generally, you don't wanna meet an agent in their residence, because there are other people that could see you. The neighbors, the doorman, the taxi driver on the street outside, they can see that activity, they can see you arrive, so they may see a foreigner arrive, and they say, why is a foreigner going to that person's apartment? It can be life or death for them. [Kari] In this country, an asset being caught working for us, especially with the amount of documents that was involved and his position, he was looking at, if not life imprisonment, execution. Safety of that asset is the most important thing that you're worried about. I mean, we took every precaution. If you make a mistake, real consequences are gonna happen. Finally, before we went out, I took a tiny little paper, and then I encrypted a phone number for another asset who they had lost contact with. Maybe after we do this meeting, I can hit a payphone and try to call this guy. You know I'm gonna make sure that I'm not being followed 'cause I knew I'm still learning what it looks like here. I plan my surveillance detection route, and Frank, the departing officer who was introducing me to this asset, plans his. And of course, you know I, uh, I flash back to, you know, training. -Surveillance detection is designed to make sure that the officer is confident, when they go to meet an agent or to do a clandestine operation, that they are not being followed. They're not being trailed, they're not being tracked. [Kari] We park the car; we get out several blocks away from where the meeting's gonna be. And, we get out of the car, there's no one around. You wanna make sure that no one's following you. Because, you know, maybe in that country they have a suspicion of who you are, and what your real job is. [Glenn] It's a very complicated issue, by the way. It's one of the hardest stresses, in my experience, that you have as an officer. Because, a good surveillance team can be sometimes very hard to detect. [Kari] As far as we could tell, no one sees us. And we go up this [footsteps, heartbeat] We emerge out of the stairwell, look around, no one's there. Walk quickly down to where the apartment is, push on the door, it's ajar like it's supposed to be. We walk in. And it turns out I did not know really what I was signing up for. [Glenn] In many countries, if somebody is caught meeting with a CIA officer, they can be executed. And unfortunately, there is a history of that. When you run an agent, you are responsible for that person's life, and you better take it seriously. [Kari] At that time it was the original Gulf War and this asset had been working for us for years, he had access to a lot of documents from his government so, I have all of these things that I have brought along inside a black leather purse-looking thing, so from the outside it looks like I just have kind of like a big, um, tote bag or purse and it, it's typical of what you might see someone carrying there. One of the most important things that I needed was the guy's salary, which was cash. It was definitely solid intelligence that he had been providing, so he got paid for that. And, all of a sudden, So, I take the money, I shove it in my bag. I take the camera, I shove it in my bag, I'm trying to do all, all this, I'm taking documents, everything that is incriminating, I'm trying to get in the bag, 'cause I don't know what's going on, but it is not a good sound. As I'm doing this, they bash the door in. About six guys come in. One of them has a camera, and he's like, snapping pictures, and they're saying you know, you're, you're spies, what are you doing in our country? And I look at Frank; he looks as surprised and confused as I am. It's all happening really fast. I'm really thinking about, okay, what is going on exactly, and how do I make sure I don't do anything that makes this situation worse? Eventually, they sort of grab ahold of us and start marching us down, out of the building, uh, to the cars. Where are they taking us? I don't know this city that well yet. I go back to my training, and a strategy for survival in this kind of a situation. -In any stressful situation, your adrenaline's gonna kick in. You have got to maintain control, there were places I was where I was walking around, where we knew that the opposition was looking to find an American to behead him. You've got to maintain control of yourself; you can't freak out. -We pull up in front of this big brick installation, and we drive down a ramp. They park, and they grab ahold of us and march us into this building. Frank is somewhere else. They've put him somewhere else, I don't know where he is, I can't hear him, I don't know what's happening to him, I don't know if he's being treated worse than I am, I don't know if they're, they're torturing him, and gonna get him to say something. I'm trying like, 100 miles an hour, trying to think about, you know, what is the best thing for me to do in this situation? And, pulling from anything that you know from the past. I grew up in a tiny town in the middle of Illinois. There were 1500 people and one stoplight. I was lucky in that my mom, um, was always really encouraging of me of any interest that I did have. She was a young mom, but she was, uh, kind of a hero to me because she constantly went back to school. Her goal was to get her undergraduate degree by the time I got mine. And then she got her master's, and then she went for her PhD, so she was a strong figure for me and someone that I never wanted to disappoint. My mom, for sure, fought hard. And so, I tried to always be like that. I am clutching this bag like it is my firstborn child. My fingers are, you know, I'm on it. This bag and what's inside could be life and death to the asset. And they take me to a perfect, like out of a movie, interrogation cell. I'm in the cell, they're with me. The guy with the gun points at me. [Glenn] What happens if you are detained? What happens if there is like a unfortunate incident? We've had officers detained; we've had officers killed. That's a, a very real concern that you have to have. It's like the quote from Churchill, "there's no safe battles." -And, now they come after the bag. I start fighting, and I say, I am a diplomat, you can't do this to me under the laws of the Geneva Convention, and this bag is my property, and it's covered under those same laws which, is probably not true. And I'd like to think that, you know, I was winning, until another guy comes up and starts peeling my fingers one by one. [speaking in foreign language] And then finally they get the bag. So, I'm feeling a little bit defeated at that point but, one of the things that they taught us in training is, if you're in a situation where you are taken prisoner, one of the most important things to do is just to sort of sit and think about, what do you know? What are the things that you know? What are the things that you're learning? What are their actions telling you? So, the first thing was, I gave them every reason to clock me pretty hard upside the head, and they didn't. That was really kinda powerful information because, I know that threat to my person wasn't their main objective. Then I have to think about, okay, what is my strategy while in here? I, I still don't know why they've done this, and what they're gonna do to our asset. And so, anything I say, I'm just afraid that they will use against him. [Glenn] There is training designed to teach you what to do if you're interrogated, how do you respond? You should never admit that you're doing something illegal. -Your cover is important, it's explaining, why are you in this place, what are you doing there. So, you have to look like what you say your job is. Right now, in my bag, they have an official document that says I work in the embassy. So, I'm gonna stick to that cover, and I'm gonna stick to it as long as I can. CIA told me when I joined that, you know, you can't tell this to anybody, that you really work for the CIA, for your own safety, for the effectiveness of your career so, I told no one, except my mom, for years. [Rob] Once you profess to being a spy, it broadens what they can ask you, and you've put yourself in a different situation. Critical to your survival is living your cover. And critical to your mission is living your cover. And critical to the lives of your agents [Kari] So, I say, I am a diplomat, and I wanna speak to my Ambassador, under the Geneva Convention you can't hold me prisoner without a, a chance to speak to my, you know, my government or my representative, and they just keep telling me, you have no rights sit down and shut up. And that was sort of the, the conversations that we were having, until somebody comes in and, um, and I think of him now as the interrogator, and he comes in, and he starts asking me questions, and one of the questions is, what's your name? Which I found really weird because they have, they have my bag, and in my bag is my official ID, so they know that I'm affiliated with the embassy. So, they know my name. So why are they asking me that? So, I found that was sort of weird but, okay, well, maybe this is just their standard, like, how they interrogate people, like we'll start with your name, but that seems a little weird. And they kept after it, and I'm like, I'm not answering any of your questions until you let me call the US Ambassador. And so that's how it goes, for hours. where Frank is. I don't know how they're treating him; I don't know if he's said anything, what the, our asset has said, I don't know any of these things, so it makes absolutely no sense, in my mind, for me to say a word. Finally, you know, they get tired, they go out, and then I remember I have this little piece of paper in my pocket. A tiny little piece of water-soluble paper, so it's paper that dissolves when it hits water, with a phone number. One of the other cases that I was given was an asset who they'd lost contact with. Earlier that day, I was thinking, okay, maybe after we do this meeting, I will try to call this guy. So, I have this little piece of paper in my pocket. But the fact that I possessed water-soluble paper, um, you know, old school spy tools, uh, not many people do that, you know, and people who do are, are usually, you know, spies. And that thing is like the Sword of Damocles hanging over my head. I think like, oh God, I've gotta get rid of this thing. They haven't searched my person yet, but they could at any moment. So, if they find this paper, what do I do? [dog barking] [Kari] We learned in training, everybody eventually breaks under hostile interrogation, eventually, you know, there's a certain amount of pain and things that you just, that threshold, you cross, and you'll start talking. And so, I'm thinking, how can I get rid of this encrypted phone number that dissolves when it hits water? I might have stuck it in my mouth. I can tell you something, though, my mouth was dry. There's a lot of adrenaline and, when you're that sort of amped up, at least for me, my mouth goes dry, so I wasn't sure I could actually even choke the thing down. And, the guard is really close to where I am, so there was a chance, me, you know, digging around in my back pocket trying to pull it out, he could, he would see that, so, I think, ah, "Guard?" "I need to go to the bathroom." And the guard ignores me. I really need to go to the bathroom. So, the guy you know, grabs me by the arm, and we march out into the hallway. And I'm thinking that I'll go into the bathroom, I will pull this thing out, I will drop it in the toilet water, and, poof, it's gone. And of course, in this place, they do not have a women's restroom, they have kind of a, a closet. And so, he takes me into this room, it's gross, and, uh, he wants to come in with me. And, of course, that doesn't suit my plans, nor do I really want him watching me go to the bathroom, so I, um, like make a fuss. And I say no, you cannot possibly be in here, just leave the door open, you know, whatever, and they decide, okay fine, we'll leave the door a little bit open. But then I, when I go into the bathroom, it's one of the old school kind of on the floor toilets, that don't have water. Quick, quick, quick, what do I do? [Glenn] Unfortunate things happen. Bad luck strikes, and so you need to be prepared all the time for that adversity. -My husband likes to joke that he doesn't think I have the fear gene, but I think it also comes from, that's just how you're wired. You know, I watched my mom be strong and, you know, and she worked full time, and so a lot of stuff I had to handle on my own. It wasn't necessarily the most traditional upbringing, so I suppose I had to figure out my place in the world and how to blend in and think on my feet a little bit growing up. I'm sure there are things I'm afraid of, but I don't dwell in that; it's for me more like the motivation, how do I get through this thing, how do I beat this thing, how do I outsmart it? -I can say that in the situations where I was under a lot of stress, there was a point, in each of these situations, where the training, something I learned, snapped, and as stressed as I was and as nervous and as scared as I was, something would say like, this is what you were taught, nut up and get out there and go do the job. -Thankfully, I'm shielded enough that I'm able to pull out the water-sol paper. There's no water in the toilet, so the next best thing. I pee on it. And, and it worked, thank God. I was so relieved. I can confirm that urine works just as well as water, and that, that was a, a small victory, um, but huge in my mind. And one of the other things that, that they taught you in these kind of situations, or in, um, if you're being held is, get a small victory, do something that helps you feel like you have gotten back some of your power. And so, while I still berate myself for having that little piece of paper in my pocket, even when I think about it now, it's, you know, I feel like it was a little bit of a embarrassing, unprofessional moment that I had that with me, it ended up being empowering in that circumstance because I was able to get rid of it and get away with it. And so, that was my small, my first small victory. [Rob] Early morning. I get a phone call from a distraught station officer's wife, noting her husband, Frank, hasn't come home. Now, could he have been out having a beer somewhere in town? A personal relationship he hadn't disclosed? That's possible, but it wasn't that officer's character. At that point, we knew that our officers, at least one officer, had a problem. So that was a concern. -So, after I get rid of the water-sol, they take me back into the cell, and I'm sitting there, and I'm thinking, okay, relief, I've solved a problem, that is good. I've made my little victory. I get to start thinking, think about what's happening, are there clues that, are there things that I can learn from this? So, I'm pulling back again from my training, okay, I'm gonna replay everything in my head that happened. So, I go back over how they came into the apartment, I go back over the guy with the camera. I feel very confident that we did not bring the surveillance to this meeting; it wasn't something that we did. And then I remember what was happening to the asset. At some point when they were coming into the apartment, I look up at the asset, and I look in his eyes, and he doesn't look as scared as I would imagine him to look. It's kinda weird, like it just hit me wrong, like, this guy doesn't look surprised even. If anything, he might even look a little bit guilty in the eyes. I mean, this is all like, happening in a second, so I mean, I could be wrong, but it just didn't feel right. It starts to really come clear that, yeah, this was a setup, this was all planned. They knew that meeting was gonna happen, and they were there, waiting. They knew that we were spying and very unhappy about it. All of a sudden, the guard that's in the room with me kind of snaps to attention, and I hear some voices in the hallway, and, um, and this man in a suit, like a proper suit, kinda stomps into the room, looks at me, comes up, and he kinda grabs my face. And he says, who the hell are you? [Kari] He touched my face, he pinched it, I mean, I didn't understand why. [interrogator] Who [Kari] Possibly, he thought I had some sort of mask or disguise on, but he was clearly expecting something different than what he found with me. Looks at the guard, the guard looks kinda scared, and confused as I am, and the guy stomps out. Okay, that's weird. [Rob] It was early morning hours. Not long after I'd gotten the phone call from the station officer's wife, the phone rings again, it's the Deputy Chief of the Internal Service of that particular country, saying, I need you to come to the building now, and bring your Chief. -And then I hear a commotion again. This time, everybody starts moving, and I hear voices, and I hear more voices and, um, they grab me by the arm, one on each side of me, and march me out We're walking forward, and out from one of these other rooms in the hallway comes Frank with his guy. The room that he emerged from looked like an office room, like, not like the dirty, uh, naked light bulb room that I was in but he was, he seemed to be in somebody's office. Okay, they gave me a different, uh, reception than they gave him. We all kinda form in a group, and we march out, and we go out into the dead of night. [Rob] The Chief and I walk in, and the, uh, liaison chief starts lecturing me about what an embarrassment they were so upset, why would you do this, we would tell you anything, they went out of their way to express their, their displeasure with us. And, uh, I keep looking to the Chief. She understood it exactly and tried to engage, he wouldn't even talk to her. Wouldn't even talk to her. Uh, it was very disrespectful. He finally looks to me, and he says, "You're the teeth of this old dog, we are done with her." [Kari] I'm trying my best to sort of see where they're taking us because I have no idea. We go into this courtyard area, which is kinda grassy and devoid of anyone. And we're walking across it. And in one of the most inappropriately funny moments of my career, Frank says, "Well, I hope they at least give us a cigarette before the firing squad comes." They march us across the rest of the courtyard and into the building, and at this point, the lights are, you know, like super bright, and we're going upstairs, and into this beautiful conference room, which is not what I expected at all. And at the head of the table is the guy in the suit, who had come in and was so displeased to see me. I know that he's important in this organization, which I assume is their FBI equivalent Intelligence Service, and then I look to his right, and there's Rob, my Deputy Chief of Station. Rob looks over at me and says, "Are you okay?" And I'm like, "I'm fine." And the guy at the head of the table was like, "Oh, it does speak." First, we had to have a very long and strident lecture about how terrible we were, and what we were doing, and how dare we, and this is their country and, how can we be like this and, you know, um, we had to hear a, a very long sort of lecture about everything. -Kari was almost belligerent. I, I was watching her face, and she's just like, ready to take them on. But she never broke cover. Never broke cover. -I was given 24 hours to leave the country, and Frank was given a couple of days. [Rob] We were lucky, 'cause many times they'll PNG the, the whole station. Persona non grata means, uh, basically get out of my country now. They said that these officers need to leave the country. We are not gonna make it a big public event. However, this has been embarrassing; this is gonna hurt relations, uh, and your Ambassador will be told about it by the Foreign Minister. Afterwards, they're released. We then go and do a debrief in a secure space to help us understand exactly what happened. [Kari] Frank and I were worried that people would think that, that we had made the mistake, and that's why this happened. And we start piecing together little bits. You know, I have little bits that I recall, Frank has little bits that he recalls, uh, we put it together, and then also Rob has some really interesting perspective because he's been dealing with the head of the Service and is the one called in. So, we start, you know, talking about it. Both of us are sure that we didn't bring surveillance, that this was all planned. It, that was borne out by the way that they came in. How many of them, the camera, the charges of espionage immediately, and the disappearance of the guy? And then, the big question: why did they call Rob and not Pat the Chief of Station? Why were they so surprised to see me? The man coming in, tugging on my face, Frank being put in what looked like a kind of an office, and I was in a jail cell. Rob was like, okay Frank, what did you tell the asset about the new officer? Well, I told him that it was a female officer because I didn't want him to be shocked, um, and that she was very experienced. [Rob] Kari and the Chief of Station are tall women, relatively tall women, and about the same size. They would not believe that we would have two female officers. And they thought they had the Chief. They thought they caught her, and they were gonna get her out of the country. We're gonna get that woman out of here. -You know, if you wanna embarrass the CIA in your country and maybe get them out, what a better way to catch the Chief of Station red-handed. It would have been a big win for them. But I'm still really concerned, you know, about what happened to the asset. It turns out that the asset had, earlier in his marriage, been stepping out on his wife and, you know, once scorned, hell hath no fury. She watched that guy like a hawk. And, one day apparently, she was talking to some of her extended family and, and griped about him and meeting these Americans, and it was the wrong person to say that to, because that got back to this country's Intelligence Service, and they started watching him. They apparently caught him taking documents out, and then were able to coerce him into working for them to catch us. After that, he went to jail. I mean, they did not forgive him for the espionage for sure. -My gut feeling is that they would have let this asset that run against us and feed us information, 'cause it was, it's always in the other, other side's interest to give you false information, uh, and, and to see what you're interested in. But when that asset was told and reported, hey, uh, it's gonna be a woman, they said, "We got the Chief." She was doomed from the day she got there. [Kari] When I came back to Washington, walking into that building was probably almost as scary as the event itself. You don't know how it's gonna land on people in Washington, and if there were political ramifications that reached to the White House. Were they gonna give me another overseas assignment? Do I have a career left? So, I go in to meet the Chief of the Division. He was like, I, uh, I understand, I've read, you know, and I've talked to Rob and, you just go, you, you take care of yourself, you take a little bit of time and, you know, and we'll, and we'll talk to you about what's next. So, it wasn't really definitive. Later on, I found out that Rob, first thing in the morning that morning, he got on the secure line, called Washington, and explained what had happened. And he had already shaped the narrative of, of what had happened and, and so, it didn't have a chance to land the wrong way. -I was not gonna let Washington hold them accountable for, for anything that they did not do. But for the most part, if, if an Op is compromised and you had nothing to do with it and, and the review shows that, we move on. We all expect something bad to happen in our careers; the object is how you mitigate it and how you handle it. [Kari] I mean, I already had a lot of respect for Rob, but this is when it really grew. He was like, "You're fine, we're gonna sort everything out, don't you worry." You know, it's gonna be okay. That was, I mean, you can see, I'm emotional about it. [Rob] After that incident, the Chief and I had to both put down long reports, talk about it, what we knew, and what we didn't beforehand. The Chief was sent out not long after that and, uh, I was recalled by the Marine Corps for, uh, Desert Storm. And, like everything else, the station continued, new, uh, new management was brought in, new assets were probably recruited. [Kari] After that meeting, I saw in the hallway one of the people that I'd worked for during training, and he saw me and said, "Hey, I heard what happened to you. Come see me, I think I got a job for you." And that was, you know, that was the best thing to hear, and he did. You know, somebody who stepped up and, and, you know, and had my back. I had a long Agency career after that, and I was able to pay it back. I was able to go on, and I was able to be Chief of Station several times. And those lessons stayed with me, and I always try to be that kind of leader to my people. I retired from the CIA after thirty-three and a half years of service. [Glenn] People have to understand, it's a hard life, but it's very rewarding, because there's no better feeling than stopping a terrorist attack, than having a source in a network that can warn you, they're going to kill the US Ambassador in this country, they made the decision last night, and this is how they're gonna do it. And then being able to disrupt that threat. -This job is about risk, it's about managing risk, it's about walking up to the, to the line, but we have a job to do. And for me, it was all about always trying to make the world a safer place. I'm proud of that.