Stanley Tucci Explores Lombardy (Full Episode) | Tucci in Italy | National Geographic

[Stanley Tucci] I'm in Milan. In this building called the Bosco Verticale. Which means vertical forest. It's a building that I've always wanted to visit. It's very innovative and forward-thinking. Not like me. I believe that the best way to understand what makes a country and its people unique is through their food. This is incredible. Oh, man! And this is true nowhere more than Italy. [speaking Italian] -Okay. -Nice. You smell that? Mm, mm, mm. Where even the shape of your pasta and the sauce you serve it with speaks directly to identity. -You like it? -I love it. -Oh, my God, it's so good! -[laughs] [Stanley] And differentiates the character and history of each region sharply from the next. It's just not what you expect. I'm Stanley Tucci and I'm exploring the complex connections between the land, the people, and the food they eat in order to discover the essence of each region in the country I love, Italy. ♪♪ Milan is the capital of Lombardy, Italy's economic powerhouse. It's a landlocked region in the north. Its three financial capitals, Milan, Bergamo, and Brescia, form a triangle of industry. It's a forward-thinking region which produces nearly a quarter of Italy's wealth. One known more for manufacturing than agriculture, more for gray skies than blue. How has that industry and innovation impacted Lombardy's food? My first stop to find out is a familiar one. I've been to this restaurant before, a few years ago. It's family run. It's one of the best restaurants in Italy, probably one of the best in the world. This is Da Vittorio, a restaurant that's long been at the forefront of Lombard cuisine. It's one of a handful in Italy holding three Michelin stars. But there's more to this place than its old world stylings. In fact, it houses its very own vertical farm. An innovative lab where its prized produce is grown. Whoa. [Luca Travaglini] We are the first vertical farm focused on fine dining. We, we grow in one hectare as 300 hectares of normal agriculture. One to 300. -Really? -Yeah. Trust me. I trust, I trust you. You're wearing a lab coat, of course I trust you. Despite appearances, Luca Travaglini and Rosella Rosso are farmers. They grow nearly 10 pounds of fresh greens here every day. [Luca] Before, agriculture was driven by climate. Now, we change how we look agriculture. -[Stanley] Mm-hmm. -[Luca] I, I don't have to produce where there are the climate, -the social condition. -Right. Right. I, I can produce all over the world. We are able really to fine tune every specific input that the plants need in terms of climate, light recipe, uh, nutrient solution, irrigation. Really, we optimize every single phase of the growth of the plant. Everything that we grow has no pesticides. -Mm-hmm. -We use less water possible. So we never spray any water on top of the leaves. These are the only leaves worldwide that doesn't have to be washed to be eaten. -[Stanley] Really? -[Luca] Yeah. -[Stanley] Can we try some? -[Rosella] Sure. -[Stanley] Yeah? -[Rosella] Yeah, sure. [Stanley] The Planet Farms team supply the restaurant with around 35 species of herbs and vegetables, including six types of basil. So, this is the what? [Luca] This is a cinnamon basil. I suggest you to do this. This one and leave... And you feel the sweetness. Okay. Mm? -That's weird. -I mean, did you create that? -No, no, no, no. -That existed? -Yeah, exist. -[Stanley] In nature? -Yeah, in nature. It's like it punches you in the mouth. And it's always the same. The nice thing also in particular for Da Vittorio is that it's not easy to do three Michelin star dishes when normal agriculture deliver anytime something slightly different. -Yeah. -But here, when we deliver them, the basil is always the same taste. That's incredible. Vertical farms like this one may represent the future of agriculture, especially in a region where land and sunshine are at a premium. But what's it like on the plate? [♪ upbeat music playing] [Stanley] In the kitchen, brothers Chicco and Bobo Cerea lead a brigade of world-class chefs. Their father put the restaurant on the map when it became the first to serve seafood in land-locked Bergamo. Gentlemen. But today, they're pushing the envelope even further with these special greens. [Stanley] Ah. No. Never in my life have I ever tasted such complexity of flavor in a tiny little salad. No, never. Never. What are they doing now? [Stanley] Sì. -This is Kohlrabi. -This is shiso, yeah. -Shiso. Mint. Cheers. Cheers. Grazie! -So fresh. -Yes. Wow. Absolutely incredible. For the final dish, the brothers liquefy their plants into a luxurious pesto, served rather non-traditionally, with Lombardy's quintessential staple, risotto. -Si. Dammit, look at that. -[Chicco speaking Italian] [Stanley] So they're red prawns, they're violet prawns. Raw. It's nice. Yep. -Honey. -So sweet, yeah. Yeah. [gasps] Stop it. -[Stanley] Yeah. -[Bobo] Very nice color, but also, I hope, if you try, it's good. [Stanley] Unbelievable, thank you. [applause] Amazing! Absolutely [bleep] amazing! That is... I don't know what it is. It's, like, beyond food. The spirit of Lombard innovation is made tangible in these extraordinary dishes. But has that same drive made its way into the food people eat every day in this region? Whoa, look how fast that guy's going. That's the thing in Italy, people do drive very quickly. Not me. I'm on the highway known as the autostrada. The Italians were actually the first to create these highways. Of course, their second thought was, "Well, we need to eat." So, they created Autogrill. The brainchild of local entrepreneur Mario Pavesi, the Autogrill not only revolutionized roadside dining, it heralded a shift in Italian culture. Today, this is one of almost 600 roadside restaurants in Italy. And I'm making a pit stop at one of the branches near Linate, on the highway to Milan. What are you getting? I'm getting the spaghetto ai tre pomodori. Thea Lenarduzzi is a local who first came to this branch as a child. Now a journalist, she writes about Italian culture. I'm gonna have the Risotto alla Milanese. Okay, straight away. Where did you grow up? -[Thea] Uh, Varese, which is... -Varese, yeah. ...more or less where this motorway started. -[Stanley] Right. -And it was the motorway that connects the Lake district with, uh, Milan. So this would be the last stop-off before you get into the madness of Milan. Grazie. Alright, let's go eat. My life was kind of punctuated by stops in Autogrill. The excitement that I would feel, um, when my dad would say, "Shoes on, shoes on," I'd be like, "Okay, great!" [Stanley] And they've been around since... [Thea] This one here was built in the 1950s, '58. And they were made to sort of look like the modern world. They were made in a time post-war when Italy moved from being an agrarian, mostly agrarian nation, to being the modern consumer country that it is. People had cars for the first time, really ever. The, the Italian miracle, is that what they called it? Yeah, exactly, the economic boom, the miracolo they called it. The question was, so what's Italy gonna be? -What are Italians gonna be? And we have the freedom now to almost start from scratch. There were all of these ideals, kind of in the culture, that you should be able to eat well, cheaply. Um, and also, people were moving in a way that they weren't. Sounds very grand, but in a way Autogrill, you know, you tell a lot about a country by, by their service station. [Stanley] Yeah. -How is it? -Mm. It's great. -Is it good? -Mm. It's fresh. -It's incredible. -[Thea] And you've seen-- It's al dente. Look at, look at the amount of saffron in there too, it's gorgeous. And they've not given you a full osso buco, which would be, pff. You'd feel it, you'd need a sleep, not advisable. -You're asleep at the wheel. -Exactly. [Stanley] Last year, Italians ate five million of their meals at Autogrill. I'm going behind the scenes to see where this innovative company is heading next. At the Milan headquarters, there's a team that develops the recipes served at Autogrill outlets nationwide. -Ciao, Stanley. -Stefano. -Stefano, nice to meet you. -How are you? -Nice to meet you too. Director Stefano Campolongo runs the test kitchen, and he's giving me a preview of their latest menu. Stan, Simone Salvini. Simone. Ciao. -And Reuben. -Ciao. -Hi, nice to meet you. -Ciao, nice to meet you too. It took almost three years to develop the ragù that you are going to taste today. It's a vegan, completely vegan ragù. [Stanley] Completely vegan. Because sometimes you don't want to eat meat, even though you may not be vegetarian or vegan or whatever. Sometimes you go in and you're like, I don't want to have meat for lunch. Currently, only two percent of Italians are vegan, but Autogrill are already planning for the future. This is a protein, a soya protein. -[Stanley] Soy protein. -[Simone] Yes. [Stanley] Is it flavored with... What do you... The flavor, soy and spices, wild herbs. Coconut, just a, a little. There's some cinnamon, sage, rosemary. [Stanley] Cinnamon, bay leaf, black pepper, lemon. -This is a secret. -[Stefano] Lemon zest. This is a secret for the flavor. -Oh, really? -[Simone] Of course. I thought you were saying it was a secret because it's gonna go on television -and then, you know... -[laughter] ...it's not a secret anymore. Then we have the final touch, that is a broad beans cheese. [Stefano] Similar... Yeah, yes. Yes, try it. It's a fermented broad beans. -Really good. -Interesting. These are all the ingredients of a classic ragù. The difference is this and this. Wow. [Simone] With oil instead of the butter. -All plant based. Yeah. -[Simone] Plant based. [Stefano] You will see we have to be fast. Because when you are in the motorways, you have to be fast. So we find the exact point of cooking of the pasta and when to stop the cooking to have a fantastic al dente. -Si. -Al dente pasta. It needs just to be warmed it up. And it's ready. Thirty seconds. -What? -[timer beeping] Ah, timer. [chuckles] So it's actually pre-cooked? -[Stefano] Pre-cooked. And... -[Stanley] And then frozen. Frozen exactly when we decide to stop it for the perfect cooking. As we... Because this is the problem when you stop at a place and they have all the pasta laid out... [Stefano] Yeah. ...inevitably, it just turns into mush. -Yes. Yes. -Right? Because it keeps cooking and you can't stop it, and they heat it up and it's... -Stanley, it's ready. [Simone] It's ready. Will you cook for my children? [laughter] Ma bello. This is for you. Grazie. that the final flavor will somehow remind of a traditional ragù. I'm smelling it like it... It smells like a ragù. I wouldn't know that that was vegan. It tastes like minced veal. -This is our target. And I would tell you, even though the camera is running, I would say, "Mmm, er, yeah." That's amazing. For Italians, the Autogrill captures a nostalgia for a particular moment in history and a comforting vision of a future where everybody can eat incredible food. The economic miracle forever changed Lombardy's landscape to one of industry. But it also had a surprising impact on the food that was made here. [Stanley] Brescia is Lombardy's second biggest town. It's also one of its wealthiest. That money comes largely from manufacturing, steel making, and ironmongery. [bell tolling] I'm heading 20 miles south to the outskirts of Calvisano, one of Brescia's satellite towns. And I've come to a steel mill to meet a local who's harnessed that industry to create an unlikely Lombard ingredient. -I don't know if you can see... -There. -Okay. Oh, wow. -Huge! They really are like prehistoric looking. [Carla Sora] Yes, like a dinosaur. Carla Sora's company exports almost a third of all the sturgeon caviar eaten in the world. All of which she produces right here, by harvesting the eggs of these prehistoric-looking creatures. [Carla] We can breed seven species, and each species offer a different kind of caviar. How big does the sturgeon... Ah, this depend upon the species, we talk about 60, 70 kilos for female. The process can last up to 20 years to produce eggs, so it's a long, long time and this is why caviar is so expensive. Caviar is expensive because of the time. This exists from the... [clears throat] the process of making the steel? Exactly. It is a sustainable process. We were the first to breed sturgeon in aquaculture farm. [Stanley] It may seem a little counterintuitive to produce one of world's most expensive ingredients in an industrial estate. But it's a surprisingly clean and eco-friendly process, which uses the surplus heat from the steelworks, to provide constant warm water essential to the sturgeons' egg laying. [Carla] We started for the meat of the fish. -Because the meat of the sturgeon it's very, very delicious. -[Carla] But in 1998, the International Convention placed the sturgeon among the animals that have to be protected from risk of extinction. The caviar became immediately from wild caviar to farmed caviar. [Stanley] Wild caviar is... [Carla] It's totally illegal and forbidden. -[Stanley] All over the world. -[Carla] Yes. And no one had done this before? -No one. -No. [Carla] We are the most cutting-edge farm to do high-quality and sustainable caviar. -That's incredible. [Stanley] A quick hop across the fishpond, is the Calvisius caviar factory. -Thank you. Sure. Quality control manager Michele Mondolo runs the factory floor. Very exciting. This is where you're extracting the eggs? [Michele] Yeah, yeah. Okay. These are some examples from our farm. They, they came here that they are ready to be, to be worked. -Right. -And so the eggs are ready to be extracted. How many fish do you do a day? [Michele] For this type of size, we're going to do 50, 60 per day. [Stanley] Each of these beasts could be carrying up to $50,000 worth of caviar in their bellies. Making what happens next a very delicate operation. [Michele] It takes a lot of time to learn how to do that. Oh, I bet. I got to get in there. [Michele] Absolutely, yeah. -So, this... Yeah. -Huh. What? What's going to be the weight of this in the end? More or less the 10% of the, of the weight of the fish. -[Stanley] So they have 10%. -[Michele] Yeah, 10%. -Of their body weight. -Of the body weight. -In eggs. -Yes, exactly. [Stanley] The remaining sturgeon are filleted and sold, another innovative company policy. Nothing goes to waste. The sturgeon roe are then washed in a process that resembles panning for gold. Only, actually more lucrative. Okay, so now... This is transformation from sturgeon roe to caviar. So she is going to add, according to secret recipe and through this weight system she is going to add salt and preservative. [Stanley] I didn't think I'd ever see that much caviar. [Michele] [laughs] No, yeah. And imagine that all of this comes only from one fish. -I know! -So now this is caviar. [Stanley] Oh, man. -Bye. -[Michele laughs] [Stanley] Thankfully, I don't have to wait too long to try the stuff. We're going to Al Gambero, the oldest fine-dining establishment in town. -I love caviar. -Yes, but this is... I mean, I've made that clear to you I think already. ...let me say the best caviar in the world. -[Stanley] Is it? Is it? -[Carla] I think so. I'm very excited about this. Show me what to do -and, and, and how. -Okay, start with this one. And now, Iberia. -[bleep] -Oh. [chuckles] The best way is to use mother pearl spoon, to avoid the metal. -It has an interaction. -Right. Exactly. Or you can use gold. -Gold, but... -As one does. -Yes, of course. [chuckles] Put on your hand the caviar. -[Carla] Okay. This is fresh, and it's very important the caviar is fresh and no smell. -No smell. -No smell? No, absolutely no smell. -Oh, yeah, it has no smell. -Okay. And now... -That was attractive. -Mm. Delicious. Mm. Can I just e at the whole thing? Absolutely, you have to. This is the greatest day of my life. Though caviar is not a traditional Lombard ingredient, the locals have found a way to embrace it with a dish that is as simple as it is luxurious. This is one of the best way to tasting caviar, with spaghetti. -So, spaghetti... -You found the shrimp... -[Stanley] ...and shrimp? -[Carla] And shrimp. And caviar on the top. Very light. -Very delicious. -[Carla] Yep, okay. Oh. -I-I-I... This is so... [laughs] -incredibly decadent... -And you have... -[Carla laughs] -...and, and beautiful. It's like... that's like a dream. -They come together very well. That's one of the best plates of pasta I've ever had. This may seem a million miles from the steel forges that birthed it. You're like the most elegant woman I've ever spent time with, don't tell my wife. -Cheers. -Thank you, Stanley. But for Brescians, luxurious food has always gone hand in hand with industry. But despite the industriousness of the Lombards, not every ingredient's journey is a sure-fire success. [birds chirping] The longest river in Italy, the Po, flows through the south of Lombardy. Where it forms a marshy flatland called the Pianura Padana. It's also an area that gives its name to Lombardy's most famous cheese, Grana Padano. Milder, sweeter, and less expensive than Parmigiano, it's become the most consumed cheese in the world. But just 40 years ago, Grana Padano's future was far less certain. And it was only saved thanks to a rather unlikely part of the Lombard population. Stanley. Nice to meet you. How are you? How are you? I'm fine, thank you. I'm just shoveling the, the food. Oh, it's their food. You're not shoveling the other stuff? No, no! I'm just... No, no. Gurpreet Singh is one of about 30,000 Sikhs living and working in Lombardy today. [Gurpreet] These are the pregnant ones. They will give birth and then they will start their career. Right. Exa... [laughs] Yeah. So young. So when did you start your career? I started here in 2018. But you came to Italy when you were... I was 6 months old when I came here. -From where? -I came from Punjab. The Punjabi people came here in the 1980s, because many people were leaving these jobs, many farmers were closing their farms. -Moving towards the big cities. So, the Italian labor needed... -Needed a workforce. -...workers, yeah. You needed people who knew what they were doing. [Gurpreet] Oh, yes. It's a job that we know how to do. And that was why people like your dad -came over here. [Stanley] Gurpreet's parents were part of a wave of migration from the Indian state of Punjab, an area with a similar flat, marshy landscape to the Pianura Padana. And with their shared farming culture and respect for the sanctity of cattle, the Sikhs not only filled the gap left by Lombardy's economic miracle, but they helped resuscitate the industry as a whole. [Gurpreet] There was a time that old farmers were very violent with cows, they didn't have patience. Now we are very, very, very calm with them. We don't like to shout. -That is very important, and so they are not scared. They feel very safe and calm, and they give more milk because then their nervous system releases the milk production. Their production is better. You can win everything with, with love because... You can. So all the cows, you can see they are all under the roof, because they need, they want to stay fresh. -Yes, it's completely... It's much cooler in here that it is out there. But also, they love rain. -They are very active. [Gurpreet] They move a lot. They, they do a lot of sounds. Some are very shy. It's like human beings. [Stanley] Yeah. Their personalities are different. [Gurpreet] Yeah, personalities. We established the standard with the, the quality of, of this... of our milk. -[Gurpreet] And now it's the, one of the best in the world. [Stanley] Today, Indians, and largely Sikhs, make up around 50% of the dairy sector in Lombardy. This is where it all goes? Four thousand liters, because each cow produces about from 20 to 25 liters of, of milk. -[Stanley] A day? -A day, yes. It's a lot. So the cows are really happy. -Yes, happy. [Gurpreet] And here, I have the Hall of Fame. These are the best of the best. They give a lot of milk. -That was my idea because the cows had feelings and also they had a soul. So, as a way to honor them and appreciate them, I start to hang up these tags. -Oh, that's nice. -Yes. It's just an idea, but it's... it's a silly idea but... No, it's not a silly idea at all. It's very, it's very moving. Thank you. Thank you very much. [Stanley] The influx of Punjabi workers to Lombardy helped save what is now a $2 billion industry and ensured the survival of Grana Padano. And if happy cows do produce more milk, perhaps some of that success is down to the kindness of people like Preet. This is cheese from the milk we produce. -Oh, my God. -It's a present for you. -This is the Grana Padano? -[Gurpreet] Yes. Are you gonna have a piece? -[Gurpreet] Oh, sure, sure. -[Stanley] Here. [Gurpreet] Thank you very much. You want some more? You sure? -It's all yours. -[Gurpreet] My pleasure. -[Stanley] I'll take it. Mm. Oh, my God, it's so good. -Intense. -Yeah. l love it. [Stanley] Totally different... -...than Parmigiano. -Isn't it? An openness to an evolving workforce helped save this dying industry. And, I hope, earned acceptance for this hard-working community. But the path of progress is not always a straight one. There's a backlash in Lombardy that's threatening its forward-thinking ideals. [Stanley] Milan is an island of innovation. A vibrant and modern city that now stands in starker contrast than ever with the nation's conservative policies. I'm going to a traditional Sunday lunch, with a local family caught in the middle, new fathers Davide Fassi and Davide Chiappa. -Permesso. -Oh, hello! -Hi. -[Fassi] Hello. Ciao. Stanley. -Yes, like that. -Davide, nice to meet you. Ciao, Davide, Davide. -Martino Libero. We are mashing the potatoes for gnocchis. -And Martino is helping us. [Stanley] Aww. How often do you make gnocchi? [Fassi] Yeah, I think once a month. -[Stanley] Once a month. -[Fassi] Yeah. It's just a kind of special dish for him. -Because, you know, there are carbs, and then we put ragù. It's a good balance between carbs and protein. It's a favorite dish. -[Stanley] That's good. -[Chiappa] Yeah, also for us because it's quite simple to prepare, and it's complete food for him. My, um, my daughter, she's about to be six. -[Fassi] Okay. -[Stanley] Okay? No! Martino eats everything. -[Stanley] Everything. -[Fassi] Yeah. -Aaah! [Stanley] The couple became parents with the help of a surrogate in Oregon. So, he's an American citizen. [Fassi] He is only. -He's only an American... -American citizen, yeah. But in a twist of fate, while spending their first days with Martino in America, they learned that back home, Italian policy had changed overnight and that their local council would no longer be able to recognize his birth certificate. We have birth certificate -from US... ...when we are both parents, and parents, but it's not possible to translate the certificate. [Fassi] In Italy, there is no recognition of same-sex parents. We were in the very middle of a political storm where the ultra govern... -What's up? -Yeah, I know, it's a storm, it's very sad. So we're talking about like, you just adopted him. As same-sex parents in Italy, you can't adopt. Even before this administration. -We... It's not allowed. -[Martino fussing] -[Stanley] Uh-oh. [Martino crying] Amore mio. The family is in limbo, while they challenge the government policy in court to allow Martino to be legally recognized under both their names. Otherwise, one of the fathers will have to give up his rights as a parent. Amore mio! Why did you want to have children! Look how exhausting it is. [Fassi] Oh, amore mio, are you tired? We'll make the gnocchi. It must be so frustrating. [Chiappa] Okay. [Stanley] As the gnocchi and beef ragù bubble away... We put in gnocchi here. It's super-hot. ...upstairs, Nonno Pietro and Nonnas Rosa and Pinuccia are settling in. That's delicious. -Delicious. -[Fassi] Thank you. [Stanley] So can, can I ask you how, how are you doing with the stress of it? Do you have another question? -It's not easy. It's not easy because, you know, you've got the stress about what will happen in the future, and not only in our future but even in his future. Milan is one of the, um, happy island, let's say, of the, of the Lombardy region or even the Italy, but at the same time, we are not an independent state. Can you tell me... [laughs] his middle name? Libero. -[Stanley] Cheers. -[Fassi] It's a kind of wish. Politicians are temporary, but their policies can have long-lasting effects. Until he's recognized as an Italian citizen, Martino will never be able to vote to change the system. [Fassi] Yes. [Stanley] For my part, I hope in the future that the legal meaning of family will be closer to the original Latin... a word that simply meant household. In Italy's fastest-moving city, the culinary trends are constantly going forward. But there's one place that's standing out by turning backwards. I'm going to this restaurant that I went to four years ago that my wife discovered, as usual, and, uh, and as usual, it was amazing. So, I'm going back in. It's called Trippa. Their bright idea is offal, O-F-F-A-L... and other traditional Lombard delicacies. Despite the success of the restaurant, Chef Diego Rossi and owner Pietro Caroli don't believe in chasing the money. There's only one Trippa. [Stanley] Besides their flexible working hours, Diego's bold approach to Milanese cuisine sets his kitchen apart. Rather than trying to be flavor of the month, he's going back to basics, with classics like vitello tonnato. But look at how beautiful... Yeah, try it. Ready? Mm! I just love it. I love it. Thank you. We're going to eat, we're gonna eat some more. -Alright. The first, of what I know will be many courses, is the one the place is named for. [Diego] Are you ready? This is done with a special cut of tripe. It's called... -Oh, a hive? -Hive. Oh, yeah, 'cause it looks like a hive. -[Diego laughs] Why did you decide to focus... call it Trippa, and focus on offal? Because it was something actually missing in the Italian New Tradition. Because... You make a fillet, it's just three minutes -you can just destroy it. But the result, that's why. -[Stanley] Chef. -Next. And we have -rabbit offals. -[Stanley] I love-- [Stanley] Grazie. So, rabbit offal, which I happen to love because I love rabbit and everything inside of it. [Pietro] And you have all the offals, everything. -Kidney... -[Pietro] ...liver... -[Pietro] ...heart. I can... I cannot wait to tell my wife about this because she never watches the show. Find another place where you can try something like that. No, you... No. No. That's [bleep] amazing. Okay. Snails. [Pietro] Big ones. Green peas and wild garlic. Oh, my God. It's too much. [Pietro] I actually took the best decision of my life 10 years ago when I met Diego, because I understood from the beginning he's a genius. [Stanley] Mm. It's just one of the best things ever. Yeah, it looks simple, but it's not. No, it's not simple. No. It's incredibly sophisticated and beautiful. [Pietro] I told you he is a genius. [Stanley] It's true. -Incredibile. -[Diego laughing] Veramente. Absolutely amazing. Incredible. Bravo, bravo, bravo. [Stanley] Milan has always been an oasis for the forward-thinking and the innovative. Although today's Italy is more conservative, Lombards respect their traditions but never shy away from new ideas. And the region's cuisine reflects those two sides, rooted in the old but open to the new. As little Martino might one day say, your starting point is important, but where you go next... is more so.