Companies Are Still Hiring QA | But Here's What's Different

People are very sure of AI will kill the QA job. Are they correct? Why or why not? In my opinion, no. They're talking about how we can actually use AI to be more efficient. Companies are still deciding the implementation of AI. I don't believe that it is actually just taking QA roles all the way down. As bad as the market has felt, companies are still hiring. You don't have time to just sit around. You want to be more valuable in the market. to be a jack of all trades. You need to become the QA team. All right, guys. We're talking QA roles in the age of AI with a woman who has helped launch more QA careers than really anyone on the internet right now. She is Jenny Goddess. She is coming back to us. She was first a guest in 2024. You can hear her backstory on how she job stacked to multiple QA roles and was collecting 400k in her first year. And she's still working in QA and she helps launch QA careers as well with her Road to QA cohort. So, Jenny, welcome back to the show. Thank you. Thank you for having me. How are you doing today? Good. Good. So, let's let's get into the topic that people are So, a lot of people are very sure of and that is that AI will kill the QA job. So, I'm assuming you're still looking to pay your bills. So, are they correct? Why or why not? So, AI killing QA roles. Well, I'm going to say in my opinion, no, right? I can't never tell you exactly what's going to happen, but from what I'm seeing, even in my own QA role, I literally got off a meeting and they talked about how we're actually implementing agentic AI across developers and across QA. So, even in my current role with a Fortune 500 company, they're not actively talking about laying off, talking about how we can actually use AI to be more efficient. I am seeing large companies. We have seen the layoffs, but then we've also seen people get hired back. Then we've also the cost of AI. So, it's my belief that companies are still deciding the implementation of AI. What fits best with them to implement it, to add it in. QA's using the tool. What is the ratio between the cost of that and having AI there versus having AI agents versus also still having a human in the loop. So, for me, I'm going to say I don't I do believe that teams are minimizing, but not really in a bad way. More so in a way that you do need more skill sets. So, what we've shifted to now is instead of just saying be a QA and be a manual QA, be the QA team. When you become the QA team, you have the skills to do front-end testing, to do back-end testing, to do middleware testing, to database and API. You have the skills to do automation. You have the skills to maybe understand some DevOps processes or even test AI applications and use AI assisted assisted tools. So, what is in my opinion that you need to become the QA team. Now, I do not want to scare anyone and say, "Oh my guys, you need all of these skills to get your first yes." I don't believe that you have to have all of that still get your first yes, but I do believe that AI is opening more opportunities for you to also make more and be more valuable to the implementation of AI and where it's used. Yeah, and you're even still launching people's manual QA careers, which again, there's been automated QA for 15 years at least, probably longer than that. I've been following them for 15 years. And they're still been manual the whole time, too. You're still in 2026, you're launching junior manual QAs. You're getting them hired? Yeah, so since Road to QA where I taught my students not to just go in the market as a manual QA, right? So, even from Road to QA, we teach you some front-end testing, then how to do some back-end testing, middleware testing, and some intro to automation. And so, I've taught my students to sit in that space. Now, if a person chose to go that way and just go strictly manual, that was their choice. And we still have had students who are manual QAs today, who still have QA jobs. Also, I've dealt with the layoff. But, because of my skills, I was able to get another role. Now, I do have more skills, but then I have had a student or two that said they had a decision at their company because of AI. And then they got back into the market, and they got another role. So, I want you to use that as hope to know that if you are a manual QA today, the best thing that I would tell you to do is to look and see if your company is even doing anything to help you guys learn to move up and use AI tools, and also do some outside line. Use your manual QA role right now as time, but still move like you don't have no time. Right. Any industries that you've seen that are hiring more entry-level QAs right now, like as far as your students go, or is it just kind of across the board? Yeah, that's a good question. I don't feel like in my career I've seen a lot of QA roles that ever really say entry-level. I would say what would be considered entry-level is if you see something that maybe says specifically 1 to 2 years or 1 to 3 years with equivalent experience, no degree. Okay, so I do believe that you can still get a first role. I don't believe really in entry-level, and I haven't anyways. Same concept that I taught my students. I believe that you are going to look at a job description and see where you can fit your experience, right? A job description could say 1 to 2 or 3 years experience with They're not looking for a degree, but maybe equivalent experience. So, it's about how you actually position who you were before with your new QA skills. I think the problem is that a lot of people are trying to get into the market, and then they do a boot camp, they do a program, they just slap it on there, and it's like, I'm a newbie. But, your resume and your experience is not telling how you actually solve problems, how you brought solutions to testing, how you utilize those tools to improve processes or testing. So, to answer your question, I never believed that there was really entry level. I believe in experience and actually solving the problem using your skills. So, I tell people to start somewhere and then create a plan to increase your skill. And with whatever you have now with QA, go after those roles that's in alignment with the 1 to 3 to 5 years. It can even say 5 years of experience. But on that 5 years of experience, can you do everything on that job description? If you can do what's on that job description, you need to go for that role. It's about how you position it. Yeah. It It What is far What have you seen in the market? Wow, yeah, definitely 2021, 22, 23, 24, and 25 kind of slowed down. I definitely had an average of three to four students a month between 2021 and 2023 landing roles, and more like one to two. But I also have to Road to QA has been like a self-paced experience. So, the time is go at your own pace, access for a year, but you have access to live mentorship. So, student is taking their time. So, it depends on where a student is. It's really hard for me to just give moving forward because we do know that we've been in a certain market. But with that, I have seen a decline just because there is more effort that's needed. It's a totally different market, and I don't think anybody can lie about that. But opportunities are still happening. We still We just had two people land jobs this month. Yeah, that's the thing. It's that as the market has felt, companies are still hiring. So, why don't you give us a little sauce as far as that goes? How What's some tips you give to your students they go through your program, say, "Okay, it's time to land that first job." Absolutely. So, tips to actually get your first role is to first start with your actual experience. Walmart, go inside of Walmart, and we know that Walmart put those POS machines there like Target so that you can self-checkout. The irony is that they always need humans in the lab. They put those machines there so you can self-check out, but behind the scenes, someone is still testing it to make sure it works. And so, if you actually worked at Walmart, and you was previously the customer service representative, or if you are working at Walmart, and you're the person troubleshooting that, you can utilize that those skills right there of troubleshooting, right? Investigation, utilizing the software to assist the customer, and then add new QA skills on top to position. I think a lot of times people are forgetting about their current experience, and they don't think it's relevant. One of the biggest things that we do in QA is we analyze and review business requirements. There was a situation actually today at work where business requirements change. So, then for the software application I was testing, the functionality of something changed. It was not updated in the business requirements. And so, when I went to go test it, it wasn't in the same scope of what I was actually testing. I had to go back to the BA, back to the developers, and before I actually reported a defect, I had to verify what was the expected outcome. And so, a lot of times it's communication between developers, business analysts, or business system analysts, or product owners. If you communicated at work in any way, utilize that communication skill and bring that over to QA to solve problems, just like what I'm doing in QA. Yeah, and obviously you have your finger on the pulse of the QA market. The job market, what technologies and skills are getting hired right now? So, the last spoke, what's changed? What have you been added What have you added to your curriculum, and what have you kind of said, "Hey, no one's even hiring for this anymore?" Right. So, one of the things we always had like intro to SQL, so we never went too deep because we didn't find that a lot of our students were landing jobs that used database testing more extensively. So, more so focusing on finance testing and API testing specifically and then also now automation. So, before it was like intro to automation, put your hands on it maybe from a record and playback. Now it's like, can you actually understand the basics of JavaScript? Can you maybe if you can't create a framework, can you actually create an automation from within Playwright from scratch? So, I think now is asking for a little bit more as far as also the DevOps process CICD. Even though that kind of belongs to the cloud engineers and DevOps process, as a QA engineer it's very important that you understand what DevOps means to the actual automation and QA process. So, I'm going to say front end testing, API testing, get your hands on some automation. I'm not going to say you have to build a framework from scratch, but you should know how and or what goes into a framework or the concept of a framework and how it's structured. And but at the very least, can you even use Playwright, the recording aspect of code gen and create a script? Then start looking at the code and learning more and more as you create scripts. Go learn intro to JavaScript and then build your skills there and create your first script. I don't want you to think that you have to overnight build a whole framework, but can you take manual process? So, think about this, if you are a manual QA, create a user story, a user I can [clears throat] log into my account and I can pay my bill. Can you actually go and Playwright and create that same script? Voila. Now keep building off of that and then understand JavaScript, actually what you're doing and how to improve that automation. So, as a manual tester, you need to just keep growing and not think that you need to know everything at first. I literally just saw two job descriptions this last week that said the willingness to grow in automation. They are out there now. Are you competing with more people for them? Absolutely. But, this is where we say you don't have time to just sit around. market because at the same time those job descriptions are also saying 120 versus 80 or 90. Yeah. And Playwright is definitely something I've seen on job descriptions a lot more, definitely since we met. I don't even think we talked about Playwright during our last interview. Yeah, no it's no it's been out for a while but the main thing was Selenium. But now you have Playwright and then you can also do cross-browser testing, you can do AI. Easier to set up in ways. So there's so many different benefits to Playwright. It's very good for beginners, too. But you still have to be able to start to understand the basis of JavaScript. One of the biggest things is a lot of people went to boot camps and heard no coding. Now people are like, well, I'm looking at the job descriptions and they're saying automation. I thought I didn't have to code. Well, it has changed because now you are a part of that process. So you do want to at least get the basics and keep moving forward. If I was you, I would start learning a little bit of JavaScript, create my first script, be able to articulate the problem that I solved or the script that I chose, create maybe a GitHub portfolio, record myself because the easiest way for you to improve how you land and speak in interviews is for you to be able to teach someone else. That's the irony of how Road to QA was built because as I was actually learning in QA, I started teaching other people and that's what actually allowed me to grow. So I would challenge you as a manual tester to accelerate that process by trying to also teach someone else as you learn. But yes, Playwright is definitely something now. You can also do you can use APM for mobile test automation. We haven't added that yet. We are going into two different programs now. So we're finding that we have people that are still trying to figure out how they can get their first yes and be enough, right there. But then we have the next person who's like, look, I'm already making six figures, I'm already in tech or I want a vertical transfer to come into QA. I need this now. I'm not trying to take another year to do this. I want these skills now. And that's what our new cohort is for. And it's going to go deeper and it's more accelerated. Where our core of Road to QA is self-paced, but also you get mentorship and you're doing front-end testing, back-end testing, middleware testing. You're doing some intro to automation. We're adding an intro to playwright in there as we speak. Whereas now we also have a separate 30 days of playwright with a portfolio that we also have behind the scenes. And then that process is also going inside of the cohort. But with the cohort, the accelerator is actually going to go where you do AI-assisted manual testing. So instead of you actually just manual testing, you're going to learn manual testing very quickly, but then how to accelerate it with AI-assisted tools. Then you're going to move into assistant internship and take everything you learn from there and put it in a 10-day internship. Then from there you're going to move into automation with AI-assisted tools and AI agents. And then from there you actually test AI applications. So our two programs are kind of for the getting their first yes, I want to go fast and get there. So those are the differences. So I wouldn't say that we necessarily just remove something. We did create a separate program cuz we do understand that everyone sometimes people are ready at a different level. Yeah, okay. So it's for you have the entry-level or beginning things. We won't call it entry-level. Yeah, we call it first yes in tech. So we're saying that it's still [clears throat] enough. It's still enough to get your first yes, right? But if you want to compete at a higher level, then we have our six-figure AI first QA engineer track. Okay. Okay. So yeah, that's what I want to talk about. So someone that has a couple years experience in the manual world. They're not making great money yet and they're seeing job descriptions come out with technologies that they definitely didn't learn coming up. And so they're looking to kind of just make that leap in their career, correct? Yes. So if you have first yes in tech is saying, look, it's really designed for that person who's still kind of under 60, 70k. They still want their first year. So, this is a great way to use your transferable skills, get inside the road to QA, and maybe in 90 days be able to at least get in the market with what we have in road to QA. Now, if you do it by our plan, you could do that, but you still have a access to your year. However, but getting to the market so you don't have to take a year, right? And then you can go for something that's 70, 80, 90, 100k. But then our accelerator for someone who's like, "Look, maybe I am a logistics manager at Publix, and I'm already making six figures, but I want to work I want to have remote and hybrid opportunities. I I don't want to be on the floor all day. But so now, and I don't at the warehouse. So now, I want to be able to work from home, travel, have more flexibility. I want to go for those opportunities. But not even just that, my income is capped at 110. So maybe your income is capped right at about 100 or so, and you're like, "I want more potential." Well, six six-figure AI first QA engineer would be for you because now you're talking about I want remote possibilities, so I want a hybrid possibilities. I want to be able to go for a QA engineer, QA automation, AI engineer. So now, you're opening your potential from not from just 70 to 100, now you're already at six figures, right? So you're trying to go from 120 plus. So that's what the That's the difference in the person. I think a lot of times some people try to jump and go from maybe you've only been making 50k to the six figures. It's possible. I've had a student a few students do it, right? But at the same time, it does take more work, and I think we need to be honest with the work that it takes to actually command six figures also. What do those AI tester roles look like? I don't think I've ever seen one, or maybe just one or two in my recruitment business. Like, what are they looking for on that? That's They're still forming. I don't feel that they're just that we know exactly what they want. I feel companies are deciding what they want. Kind of like with QA, right? You can pull 10 different QA roles and line them all up together and I guarantee the job description still looks different. And you're like, what the heck? So, with the stand, I would say overall, they're wanting I'm definitely seeing that you're using tools like LangSmith or Deep Seek, but most importantly, can you actually test LLMs or models? So, now can you test Gemini versus ChatGPT versus Claude? Can you use tools like Prompt Foo, Agenta, AI, Llama, like all of these things to actually evaluate AI? So, can you evaluate LLMs and then can you also test the different models against each other? And then you have agents, too. So, we listed we we talked about Playwright from a QA standpoint. So, from a QA standpoint, you can actually do QA, you can actually do AI agents in Playwright also for QA, right? But then when you actually come to some of the actual softwares of the softwares, you can also build agents there. But nine times out of 10, if you're using Playwright anyway for QA automation, you're probably going to build the agent inside of from Playwright also. So, those are two different So, like you got to learn all those different skills, right? So, then you're going from automation. So, if I was on the road map, I would say learn automation, create your scripts, add in a few AI assistant tools. I feel that with agents, although they are saving us a lot of time, they still cost a lot of money. And the more you build, the more money it costs the company. So, I think at some point companies are still pulling starting to pull back to also analyze budget and also trying to identify the ROI of those. So, I think having the skill to build agents is great, but I don't feel that a person needs to feel that they need to know all of that to still get their first yes. So, there are things where you can just learn the entry-level points of maybe AI assisted tools versus actually testing AI cuz those are two different things, right? So, if you're using AI assisted tools or AI powered tools, you're speeding up the efficiency of testing. But, if you're actually testing AI, you're testing the application that actually has a AI functionality. And that's a whole another skill. Now, you're definitely talking about opening up those opportunities that are maybe 120, 30, 40 plus, right? But, again, the market is still talent There's They're still deciding what that is. But, most of the things are Can you actually test the models and can you actually test them against each other and utilize those tools? And use AI assist and still using AI assisted tools to improve efficiency. But, DevOps is also another thing. So, again, that CI CD process. For a newbie, I probably wouldn't say that you have to understand a whole CI CD from a Jenkins standpoint, but I would definitely say if you can do it from a GitHub action standpoint, that's a great start. So, can you do some automation with going to CI CD processes using GitHub actions? And then from there, how would you actually take everything that you did manually and automation and how would you add AI to it? That's kind of the order that I would actually still learn and do. Because, regardless, when you're dumping AI on top of something, you're still dumping it on top of the foundations of QA. Yeah, and I think that gives people I think like you you're showing people A how to use AI to make your job easier, but then also the skills you're going to need to test AI. Do you see a scenario where from the top these companies are investing so much and things are going to go horribly wrong? So, there could be a real boom for these type of jobs where it's like, "Hey, we need someone to just kind of oversee the AI that we gave everything to that's now causing all these issues, right?" now you're talking like a Also, there's AI architect, right? Like, again, you can have a AI So, you can have a AI tester, right? Or a Gen AI tester, or AI QA engineer, right? I've seen the titles in different ways. They're still They're still discovering what that is, right? But, then you can still have like a AI architect or workflow or operations architect. So, maybe that's someone who's saying, "What's the budget around is and who's going to manage this?" You can have somebody to build that out, but then maybe you have a tester that actually manages that. Or the AI architect can do all of that. So, I think companies are still deciding like how do we implement AI where? But, where does the human come into play? I don't feel that we're just totally going away. Like, we are still there testing. We're still there managing the AI, implementing it. Again, business requirements still have to come down for how this software works. Edge cases still. So, things that that AI is not thinking about, it still can miss it. I don't think a lot of times when you're using AI, you don't realize that AI actually does more agreeing with you than anything. So, you So, a lot of times like I've actually put something to AI and then I'm like, "Hey, but this." And it's like, "Oh, by the way, you're right." Like, "Well, I asked you that. How come you didn't give me that answer?" And so, that is also a part of being able to test different models against each other. And if you get that effect across the board. And so, you could have someone that comes in and they're analyzing what model is the right model for an AI application or test them against them each other to see also budgeting and tokens and making all of those decision factors. So, I feel that companies are still very much deciding what this is. I think we're going to learn with with the growth of AI what this is going to become. And I do feel that more roles is going to come out of it. I just also feel that skill set is going to have to be improved because again, with everything we're saying, I'm going to say, "If you're going to get be ahead of anything, be on a plan to become the QA team." Why? Is not to say that you have to do everything, but if you did, you'd make a lot of more money. At least you should. But, at the very least you'll be you would be even more competitive because whether that job description says QA engineer with front end testing, back end testing, and some automation, or QA automation with some CICD processes, or maybe QA engineer with some some AI power tools, you can go for each one of them. Why? Because you have the skills to actually become the QA team. And that is the direction that I want my students to to to aim for in their career. Yeah, and I think that's a good point cuz you see a lot of these job descriptions. Used to be just an automated tester or just a manual, and now suddenly it's just a QA, and then underneath you see manual and automated. Stuff like that. And so yeah, you have to be a jack of all trades, but I think it's still going to be a great opportunity for a lot of people if they're able to get those skills. Yeah, and again, there are still manual roles. However, I'm going to say like this, you may not see them say manual QA in the job description anymore. I just pulled like three yesterday, and they were actual manual roles cuz they asked for no automation. No no talk about automation, but guess what the job title was? Software QA engineer, quality assurance engineer. So you still have your QA engineer, and that's what I aim for my students to always sit in as a QA engineer. Because if you sit in the as a QA engineer, you're more likely to also get the phone to ring more, right? And so now your resume from your perspective, your resume may feel more manual because you don't have all the automation stuff or maybe some automation, but you are positioning as a QA engineer to say I can test the software for what this job is actually asking for. Now, I'm going to still say that I would want you to have more skills on there so you can compete cuz you're still going to have people that go for those roles too that have higher skill set. And obviously, when people with more skill sets go for those jobs, they're going to look at them too. So at the same time, then then it comes down to you get the interview, they could look at the person and say, "Well, they have more skills. They're willing to take a pay cut." All of these things happen, right? So we're going to hire them cuz they have a higher skill set. Or, they can look at you and say, she's within budget here, or but she has great personality. And I think we don't still we we forget that company still also look at the person. They still look at you as a person, what you're capable of, and if what type of value you're going to bring to the company. One of the things that's very valuable, I believe, in this market is being a subject matter expert. So, if there is like a banking software and they're hiring a QA engineer, a logistic software, if there is something within the government sector, if you've been a part of those sectors specifically, I do think that being a subject matter expert and having a QA skill is going to put you in position to have a high a higher value to the application process, especially when you talk about using AI assisted tools, or specifically testing AI applications in a industry specific area. Why? Because you have the QA skill, but you're bringing subject matter expert experience to that industry. So, if I'm coming from I don't know, if I'm coming from retail and you're coming from logistics, but it's a logistic software, you look more attractive because I still have to come learn the software, but the same time, you have subject matter experience that closes the gap sooner. You So, you're probably going to your learning curve curve is going to be shorter than me than than mine probably. So, I think a lot of times we don't look at the fact that we have experience in different industries that also can make you competitive to the role that you're going for. Yeah, and obviously you've helped when I saw you 2 years ago, you had helped over a thousand students. So, now you're probably multiple thousand, but any stories stick out, a student win that you've had, someone no experience, and now suddenly they're making six plus figures very quickly. Any student stories really kind of stand out in your head? Absolutely. I have been able to do free courses, crash courses. I I a QA so I've taught lots and lots of people. We specifically have actually helped over 200 people get their actual first yes that I know of. So, people learn from me in different ways, but if you keep on going, yes, you can definitely get that first yes like those students. And one of I have two students that stand out to me. I have Shaniqua who actually came from construction and then she came wrote a QA. She got her first yes. Now she's working with the auto software auto company. She's been in her role now for well over a year and a half. But now she's helped that Fortune 500 company also implement AI and AI agents inside of that company. I still want individuals to understand that learning still doesn't stop at my program or another person's program. You have to be a self-starter, right? And especially if you want to show your value and you want to move up. Now she's going to be able to take all that experience, her first yes, and the new found experience. Now she can take that to her next QA role and demand six figures. Her getting her first yes, but then her not stopping the journey. And that's what I want to highlight is do not stop the journey because your first yes opens up so much more. You talking about going from construction, being in the heat to being able to work in an office or remote to be able to then get gain skills where you can continue to work remote or hybrid and make six figures. That is the journey is you not stopping so you can get to that level. Yeah. Yeah, and I think that's great advice cuz you see two types people in tech. People that are pretty much in the same spot I knew them 10 years ago and the people that yeah, they It should be a snowball of learning and you're picking up industry skill sets and technologies just along the way and hopefully in a couple years now the snowball is much bigger and you have all these different new things on your resume. No, I think that's great. What do you suggest people do to stay current? Like as far as news or new technologies, like how do you even how do you even how do you stay aware of what's new? Definitely. So, I know everybody loves YouTube, but I'm going to tell you my favorite place is LinkedIn. So, I would go on LinkedIn and I would follow some posts of some individuals that are highly great people within the space of QA. And that that post different skills or tips. That's actually where I learned. So, I'm not talking about actual LinkedIn learning. I'm actually talking about just posts. Go follow people. I would add 10 to 20 new people per week. Follow those people. Learn from those threads. Sometimes they're posting videos. Sometimes they're talking about their experience. Sometimes like so many things you learn from those posts. And it could even be something that you disagree on. It's been a few posts where even as a QA I kind of like, but at the same time that's a great discussion, right? And so, I think that LinkedIn post is one of my favorite ways to actually learn. Obviously, you can always go to learn YouTube to actual get the quick the quick wins and actually learn from the videos and do everything and follow the videos. But, I think being able to go and read and meet people that's actually in the industry is a huge benefit. The second thing I would do is I would set a Google alerts. So, I would set a Google alerts on maybe all the tools that you use in QA. Also, just QA in in general, QA engineer in job alerts. So, anytime that the news or anything speaks about QA you have those Google alerts and you can go to it. Add in AI agents. Add in You can add in layoffs. Whatever you want. I would actually have a combination of that. So, I would go to LinkedIn first, follow people, grow grow my understanding of QA in different ways. You can definitely do it with YouTube. You can do it with Udemy. But, I'm going to go to LinkedIn first, look at some influencers, follow those those posts, go to YouTube, maybe get some hands-on, especially if I don't have the budget or money to just go to a program at the program. Then, I'm going to set my Google alerts so I'd always know what's going on in the industry. And I think that's what's important is what's going on in the in the industry. And also, you'll get that from LinkedIn posts, too, because they're always talking about what's going on in the industry of QA. So, that's what I would do to actually stay on top of everything. Yeah. What What common themes have you seen in your most successful students with the fastest growing careers? Is there anything common you've seen kind of across the board as far as they go? The common So, inside of Road to QA, we have a internship. I used to do it live, now it's considered self-paced so that we don't wait for everybody to go through the program to actually do it every four four weeks cuz we used to do it live. Now, it's like it's already pre-recorded. You go through the 10 days and you do all the work, I review it, things of that nature. So, one of the things that I find is the person actually participating. You have the person who say they watch the videos and did this and you don't see any posts and then you have the person who is posting every day and posting their work. They're articulating what they actually saw, why they how they understand it. And so, I definitely believe that the person that I feel that succeeds the most is the person that is not looking to just check off and say that they watched the video and say, "Oh, I want a certificate. I'm done." No, that this is the person who went through the program, who came to the calls, who came to the calls and did interview prep, who asked questions, who even pushed back and asked questions if it was something they maybe they had a different view on. Like, I think that's important, too. And so, it's the person who's actually doing the work because I know that if they're doing the work in the program, they're probably nine times out of 10, even when they're not in the program, they're doing the work. They're studying, they're doing everything I just said, maybe they're setting Google Alerts, maybe they're watching YouTube videos, they're adding more value to what also that I'm giving them because I do teach my students never stop learning. Do I'm not the end all be be the end all be all and I shouldn't be, right? Like, my capacity or my knowledge still also stops somewhere. But, everyone that's coming behind me up until this point, right? They I'm bringing them up with me with the knowledge I have and if you're going to surpass me and do it and go get that money because I know that when I was able to go from 40K to six figures and do this how it changed my life. So, I want my students to put their all into it. So, the common factor is doing the work and not waiting to just say, "Do I get a certificate at the end?" No, a certificate is not going to get you the job. You being able to explain the problems that you solved, why how you're using the tools to solve the problems, and most importantly, to and and how to maybe speed up or improve, you know, I'll say speed up and improve testing or catching defects in production. I know for me I had to get up goodness, 6:00 this morning. And [clears throat] that's very important because that means that everything that we tested in the last two to three sprints is now going into the hands of a user for real. And we have to verify that everything that we tested is really working. And if something is not working, we need to report that ASAP so all of that code is not pushed and that user gets that experience. And so, that could cost you talking about a Fortune 500 company. And so, that could really affect revenue, budget, can affect my job, anything. So, that job is very very important. I think a lot of times we just focus on just I took a boot camp and I didn't know. You have to realize that you testing, you're solving problems, and you're also keeping the company in business. That is very important to what you do. Yeah, and I think for anyone that's like considering the group training, the cohort type style, I think it's so important that at least like the main trainer has to still be in the field because when me and Jenny had an interview, we didn't talk about Playwright at all. And now it's like kind of one of the core components of your training. So, I think that's great. I think that's super important. It's not just like create a boot camp and kind of just people can do it. You have to be constantly evolving in technology right now. But with that being said, why don't you give one last kind of pitch? Who should consider both tracks and why should they go with Road to QA? Definitely. Well, we have our Road to QA track where help you get your first yes in tech is definitely for someone who maybe you're making under a $70,000 or you want remote possibility, hybrid opportunities, and you're tired of being stuck. One of the things I know is that I saw recently they said that the average mortgage is $420,000. The average rent is like 2,500. And one of my biggest missions is to help people just make more money. I want to help you architect a way to make more money. I have been at $40,000. I have been paycheck to paycheck. I've had title loans on my on my car before. And 5 years ago I said yes to myself. It is a commitment, but once you make the journey you get the first yes, now you're going to open up to the next aspect of what could be now a six-figure QA engineer. So I'm going to say if you're stuck under 60 or 70k or below that, definitely you need to come get your first yes in tech. There's still room for you, all right? There are still opportunities. I just looked at job descriptions and pulled them for my students today. And then when you get your first yes in tech or as you're learning, you can decide to come up to our accelerated cohort, where now you're talking about being a first six-figure QA engineer, where you can evolve with where the market is and where the market is going from for 2026 and beyond. So now you have a roadmap to to to grow, not to stop. But most importantly, I want you to also realize that I have students who's also grown to be BAs, scrum masters, technical product managers, data analysts. So now you have transferable experience that you can decide and say, "Hey, I'm going to use Road to QA, get my first yes in tech, and then from there maybe I'll go into AI or maybe I'll be a technical AI product owner or product manager." You can now pivot again cuz I'm going to show you that once you get that first yes, you're opening up your doors so that you can also move vertical or do whatever you please. And that's one of the biggest thing. I've been there where I was stuck, and I didn't know how I was going to be able to retire. And when I was 35 years old, I did not know how I was going to be able to retire. And my mother just she just retired at 38 years for working with the government. And I realized at the age of 35, I have not even held the same job for over 5 years. How the heck am I going to have retirement and I'm not going to get a pension? And the only way for me to be able to do what she has done, which is be able to then retire eventually, was for me to make more money. So, I'm going to tell if you're listening to my voice, I want you to understand you need your first yes in tech. And if you don't choose to become to Road to QA, you need a yes somewhere to make more money and a roadmap and a plan because I want you and you should want to be able to afford to live and be within this world and have a great life. So, Road to QA is here for you and we are here to grow with you. There you go. We'll have all of Jenny's links to Road to QA and her LinkedIn so you can And you have a YouTube as well, correct? Yes. Okay. So, we'll have everything all of Jenny's links will be there. You can check out Road to QA if it sounds good to you, you want to skill up or get your first yes in tech. I think it's a great option and plenty of people have done it. So, Jenny, thanks for making this happen again. All right. Thank you for having me. I hope you guys learned something today. I hope I was helpful. Yep. All right, guys. We'll catch you next time. All right. Thank you.