Is SEO Actually Dead This Time? Surfer’s Michał Suski Sets the Record Straight

Miha Suski, uh, you founded surferso.com and you and your company, Surfer, are really well known in SEO and, uh, yeah, I'm I'm excited to have this this podcast. Thank you for coming on. Thank you for having me. Uh, big big pleasure. That was 2017, uh, when we when we put it on paper, so to say. So, it's going to be our side hustle. You know, me, my brother, and a friend of mine, Suave. We It was It was 2017, close to where I'm here now, like 4 km away, my friend's house. We just decided, let's try it out. And well, fast forward 9 years later, it's a 10 year next year. God damn it. Congratulations. Can you share a bit about Surfer for people who aren't familiar with it? There are a lot of like new people in SEO to listen to the show. Yeah. So, uh we we started with reverse engineering the SERs to help you optimize and write content that is aligned with what is uh promoted by by Google right now. However, the times change as you can see we are in a really fast changing era now with with the AI. So, we also incorporated uh the part of AI. search which is a little bit different but the foundation is the same. So from let's say 2 years now we also help with optimizing for for AI visibility uh doing some data analysis because we still can do reverse engineering treating AI citations like SERs and if you uh like connect winners and losers you see okay these are the characteristics of the winning pages these are the characteristics of the loser pages. So what surfer does in an essence it helps you find out what the winners do, what the losers do, so you can be the winner as well. How have you seen the SERs change since 2017? Oh my god. How do they look like now? I don't remember because I rarely use them, right? uh this I I think this is the the biggest change with the behavior of uh how people are searching for information now. Um we are like me and you probably were slightly different because we are early adopters of the of the new technology. So uh constantly doing deep research in in in claw in GPT like you know doing all these stuff. But uh I would say that a lot of people still use blue links. Uh and I wouldn't be I wouldn't be that dramatic about the change because the majority of the customers especially for the local SEO services, they still have the same behaviors. I mean sometimes they will ask Gemini because it's on their phone already. Uh but still uh the main the main customer is still using a blue links for these less adopted I mean I'm not afraid to say that I feel that uh like deep in in my in my heart that is not changing as much as everybody is panicking. Uh so yes Google stealing more of our content. Yes, top of the funnel content is not bringing conversions, but top of the funnel content bring us strong internal links. These pages rank, they send positive signals, they they they boost our money pages. So, in the end, it's kind of same old same old. Okay, we are still building links but instead of looking at the DR, we are looking at how frequently cited is this page in my area. So it can also influence AI rankings, not only rankings in Google. So the the tactics are really similar. We just adjust the metrics uh to match the new reality. And the new reality is actually only in martekch SAS where you have these marketing team these marketing managers they know what they are doing so they are searching in you know asking all of these AI assistants what's the best solution for XY Z problem yes there is a big change but no it's not a big change for a hairdresser in I don't know where in a city in VR this method of marketing is so effective I had to make sure it wasn't against Google's rules before I kept using it a form of SEO I call compact keywords. Whereas most SEO focuses on putting up articles to answer questions, how, what, when, compact keywords focuses on putting up dozens of pages that sell to searchers who are actually looking to buy. These pages rank on Google and convert so much better than normal that when I discovered this years ago, I couldn't believe this was allowed. It's less work, too. The average compact keywords landing page is only 415 words. Compact Keywords is a 13-hour deep course on getting sales with SEO. A customer said, "We spent nearly 18,000 in the last year and a half on marketing and SEO through different agencies locally, and that did nothing. We decided to take the leap on the compact keywords course. We're now getting about 6 to eight calls per day on a good day, which is just unheard of." Another customer said, "Give it to a junior employee, have them follow it exactly as Edwards laid out. You don't have to do anything and you're going to gain a six-figure SEO level employee just by having them go through this course. Compact Keywords is about setting up an SEO funnel that brings you sales for years and years and years. It works with AI. It's less work than traditional SEO and it makes way more money. You can get it now at compactkeywords.com. Back to the podcast, right? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I'm I'm so I'm so happy you said that. It's such a grounded approach to compared to all the fear, uncertainty, doubt that you see in the SEO and marketing world around, oh my god, Google just Google literally I know we've been saying that SEO is dead for the last 25 years, but this time for real, it's actually dead because of what Google did. And and like the level-headed people I I would like to think that I'm a kind of level-headed person is like, uh, well, hold on for a second. And I mean we we can turn this conversation in that direction. That would be because there is so much hype. we can there's so much hype but but I personally don't think it's accurate kind of especially the hype uh about uh like this is one of the most hyped thing uh I see recently is that uh you shouldn't promote yourself like you shouldn't create a comparison page that people are saying don't do that saying don't do that yeah because it's kind of black hat. Uh you're going to be penalized. Watch out for this tactic. And there are some influencers when you when you look at the LinkedIn most popular posts uh around SEO, especially from uh a little bit wider Google environment. uh people uh you you you'll see uh you start noticing them the these posts panicking that you're not supposed to do this like what's the best SEO podcast and definitely don't Oh you mean the the self-promotional listicles yes exactly ah well the thing about that is I mean yeah I mean I I I curious to hear your perspective the thing the thing about self-promotional listicles this is what I'm seeing is that a few of them were fine But lots of people take it too far and then push them out in mass using AI creating very repeatable patterns. And a few again a few self-promotionalisticles that's like nothing wrong with that but going going so hard putting out hundreds putting out thousands. Sometimes you see companies literally putting out thousand and that's where it gets obvious and you're going you're going to get hit. Yeah, it's it's getting tricky uh when uh when there's this situation when you are a new business. Uh so you have nothing to lose. You have the new domain, you have a a fresh website. Well, I can use that as my advantage. Of course, like for us 9 10 years next year, we we wouldn't do like hundreds. However, if we used it in form of guest posts, who will say it's my work? Nobody. Uh I mean there is a pattern that surfers always winning. There is a pattern that Href is always losing, you know. Uh but uh I know a lot of people making [ __ ] ton of money on that. Uh it's it's a tactic. It's a life. And uh what what is changing in SEO right now is that if someone figured out this tactic like similar in terms of how powerful it is. 5 years ago someone finds a tactic so powerful as spamming with listicles because it is freaking powerful. It can be risky obviously you it can have some impact but extremely rewarding. Yeah. So if someone found this tactic, no one will tell you about it until it's exploited. And uh now I feel like people are more eager to share it. Maybe it will be more quickly when it gets exploited, but who cares? We'll find something else, right? Is it not exploited already? No. Google knows about it. I watch the statistics. So at surfer like as you as I as I said at the beginning uh we monitor AI visibility a lot. So we figured out that it will be good counterweight to the other opinions. So we actually create a definition of a self-promoting listical. Self-promoting listical in our definition is basically if surfer SEO on surfer seo.com domain. So not not a guest post included. So if surfer seo on surferso.com domain publishes an article on best SEO tool putting surfer on first. So that's a self promoting this and we are monitoring share of these type of pages in citations by AI mode a overview chat GPT perplexity Gemini and it's not going anywhere. I believe I believe that I believe that. I'm just saying what when companies push out many of them in a short amount of time, they get hit. Now, that doesn't change the fact that self-promotion listicles will work. It's just if you go too hard on them too fast, you get hit. Is that false or is that or is that not talk about the Hostinger example? Uh or uh you got some uh there's many there's many examples of it. uh like uh the one that comes to mind is Shopify which I've made an episode on and I think I think uh hosting maybe I did an episode on on hosting I don't even remember done thousands of these but is that false that like you can push out hundreds of self-promotional listicles in a short amount of time and a you'll be fine. It's actually a new it brings a new angle to the analysis because I didn't measure if one self-promoting listical drops and it's replaced by another. What I measured is I'm not saying that I'm saying are you familiar with mount AI the Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. So you see that you see the pattern mount mount AI you start getting all this organic traffic it's like a mountain and then and then something clicks within Google's Google's algorithms and you just drop and it looks it's just up and down diagonal lines it's very much like it's very much like a mountain and it's so that's the pattern that you see with a lot of companies that abuse self-promotion listicles and put maybe there is a limit I would love to actually. Well, I I actually I wanted to ask your I wanted to get your thoughts on that. That was a question that I that I had for you, which is do you how do you think Google detects lowquality AI content? I think it's with a behavioral signals, you know, because I see these patterns that a lot of pages live like under the the surface of real traffic. So they are like kind of floating second page of Google, third page of Google. So they cannot evaluate them really because there is no there's no signal and the biggest power they have over AI because AI don't doesn't have behavioral signals. It's just tokens per information retrieved and that's basically it. That that's all they have. They're robots. But Google actually has people people browsing the web all the time and sending signals uh whether they like the thing or not. Uh and I would say that this is I mean they can they can measure some footprints maybe they can measure some but what would you do? You see a footprint but you also see happy people reading. Now there's a conflict. So we have a two contradicting factors. One factor is pushing your content down from the algorithmic perspective but the other is pushing it up because another algorithmic push is coming but it is actually pushing you up. So it's uh it's hard to believe they will be they will be going after AI content because it's AI. I would say they will be going after AI content because it's [ __ ] Uh it's useless. It's it's kind of I'm reading and it's blah blah blah keyword, nothing new, like full consensus, uh zero extra information gain, like no context of your brand, uh how to do keyword research, you know, uh and basically stepbystep guide as every other guide. uh zero value. Uh so this is the problem people people forget that there must be some at least some secret sauce uh like your flavor basically like this podcast you we we we could be going with these generic questions you will you you will got from chat GPT for example like give me 10 questions to ask me he he is a co-founder of surfer this is the on page tool and it will you know bring you some generic questions you will ask me I will give an answer and you will say thank you for having me that's it right it will be zero value but when it's unstructured when we flow uh when we figured it out kind of I I figured it out on the way you probably got some got some got some research done but uh all in all it's uh it's something fresh basically and when AI content is not fresh in any in any angle like there is no fresh angle uh either structure, style, how it looks, was the information covered like nothing nothing nothing just pure uh pure slope reverse engineering then well that's that's under the surface definitely for the record I do use chat PT to come up with questions but but I'm also I'm also very I'm also very good at riffing and uh and and and flowing and I I agree that I think it is behavioral signals I do wonder if a short amount if sorry a if a huge amount of content is pushed out in a short amount of time if that is something that Google's algorithms pay attention to. I mean this is really easy to to That's what I'm saying. It's very easy to spot. Mhm. Uh but on the other hand, you got the website overhaul uh or That's true. There there's lots of legitimate reasons that that could happen branding. So you take advantage of the initial ranking uh which is an advantage and we got sorry many people proving that initial ranking is the moment you are supposed to push everything you've got so it gets the full view of of your of your website at the first time it visits is after after uh rebranding or new domain or something. Uh but on the other hand, uh 99.9% like the the freaking killer of the bacteria, right? 99.9% is [ __ ] generated with with CH GBT and I would be really really naive if I thought that Google is okay spending all their compute on reading that. Yeah, I mean that's that's the basically the uh we got like a multiple vectors in here meeting in a point and the page either goes up or down and one of these vectors is also a brand and the reputation. So uh the the more brand searches the more uh you are known basically like an entity it's a real thing uh maybe eat whatever you call it uh uh basically reality of the business like is it is a real business uh that gives you uh a strong mandate to actually push more and it's it's so much easier when you start pushing a lot to get penalized if you are fresh compared to if you have these levels of trust than that you first exploit and then you start losing if you if you uh uh if you if you if you lose uh traction and that can also happen. Um I think it might also have happened to to to us. Uh I see I see that uh Google took a lot of traffic uh from surferso.com. Uh but when I started looking inside was mostly like this tofu content replaced by uh by the AI answers basically. Uh so like we decided that we need to match the topical authority of everybody else in the industry. So we started pushing pushing pushing but now it's kind of kind of down uh uh not not not as much as the competition uh however uh it's it's significant uh but you know even though Google is taking away the traffic in most cases it is going doing it in a good wheel uh when you start looking at the keywords that you've lost you scratch your head and you think Does this keyword even belong to me? Uh, is it really uh connected to the application? So, we actually have this feature that helps with this problem. Like what is 301 redirect? You know, example, we have zero in common with 301's like nothing. And besides that, we we use 301's on our website. That's the only connection we have with 301's as server. And if we have an article about what is 301 like we are not actually legit to advise on 301's from the perspective of what we do as a company. And when you think about it, it's actually good that Google is taking away this traffic from you. Um, and I would I would I would even challenge everybody who who lost some traffic recently. really look at the keywords. Look at the keywords and think do they belong to me really because you may be surprised how smart Google is deciding maybe I was tricked so I will take it away now and they are taking away obviously sometimes you will lose uh you lose keywords that you really want well that's part of the game uh but uh all in all I I encourage you to check if it really belongs to you yeah I see you were crushing Your surface SEO was crushing from May 2024 to December 2025. You had a peak in May 2025, a year ago, and now you're down to like uh 60 something% I got it in search console. Yeah. Uh but I would tell you and so you're saying that what was hit was top offunnel pages that didn't even really do anything for you. But I I I'm I'm also curious what type of So, okay, you're saying it was top of funnel that was hit. Are you saying that your rankings I want to actually check cuz it looks like your rankings decreased too. So, it wasn't completely AI overviews taking traffic away, but do you think what type of or why do you think um why do you think you lost rankings for these keywords just because you didn't have the topical authority or something else? Uh so for for some they were like outside of our outside of our business because we also have this free tool on AI detection and AI humanization. There are these three very common very com sorry very competitive niche very competitive niche imagine uh that majority of the competitors are doing only this like originality AI GPT0 and I forgot the other names but it doesn't matter like numerous numerous many of them many competitors hotspace and they're and they're good at SEO too yes and it is also So very crowded from the perspective of customers. All the students I tell you all the students are searching for that and there are millions of those. So uh in the peak you you see we also managed to put ourselves on the high spot for AI detection and humanizing AI. uh especially in uh in a hot seasons for uh for people going to school like you know not not the vacation season not uh uh you know Christmas and so on. basically the hot season with the exams when the you know when they are judging the grades and so on. uh huge amount like it was like millions of people uh searching for free detection and free humanization but that was just the byproduct for surfer you know it was just a byproduct we were in the AI space and we thought maybe we can do something let's see blah blah blah whatever and if you put it like if you put all our traffic uh on the floor uh you will see that 80% of the people coming were actually interested in humanizing or detecting because there were so many compared to how many people are interested in SEO. So in my opinion there was a problem with identity of surfer from the perspective of traffic that we were receiving from Google. So if you look at just the traffic you can judge what is surfer judging by the how much traffic they receive from which keywords. You say AI detection company AI detection company and humanizing AI that that was like majority of the traffic we were receiving and I believe we lost that identity because of that traffic coming and it was taken away because it wasn't ours in the end. We had tools but we weren't like educated indicate like no exactly we weren't like full laser focused on the AI detection. However, it was really good. Uh I had I had the uh I had the CMO of originality.ai on the show and she is very she is she is uh very very very good at marketing and SEO and their their rankings are amazing. Yeah, that's for sure. And the the big advantage of and that's actually something really worth mentioning here as well like being laser focused on a niche uh gives I would even say unfair advantage uh over the others. Uh it's the best. It's the best. Niche down. I've been saying it on this show. I've been saying on the show for years niche down as down as you can go. Even if you niche down to the one single client, then you work with them and you look around, you see, oh god damn, there's another one like this one and I already experienced with this type of business. So I take it. So I take more and more and more. So you are it's like bottom up, not top down uh growth. So but but you have to first like put yourself as the lowest uh level uh like atoms, right? You cannot 100% you go down then you see look alikes and only then if it makes sense you can you can get up. And for us it was like uh we looked at this uh humanizing and detection and we we we we grabbed a bite that was way bigger than our mouth. we we we couldn't even eat it uh because of the the volumes because of the because of the traffic and it turns out uh we we that's my that's my just uh uh my my opinion but I think we lost the identity as the SEO tool uh as the optimization tool content tool uh in in favor of detecting and humanizing AI which wasn't even close to our core product uh just a byproduct you know we we did uh wrong decision at the time because we supposed to launch a new brand for that uh if we launched a new brand for AI detection and humanizing AI that was like couple years ago and we we had the tools that were really good even you know going after the uh or like through the uh through the uh analysis of originality we easily trained the models to to get get over uh with with their uh with their scoring. Uh so it was a it was a good tool especially at the time we were when we were keeping investing uh in this area uh and if we put uh together a separate brand and we wouldn't we wouldn't lose it basically because we would be like GPT minus one whatever uh it can be any other name uh would you do the separate brand on a different domain or would you do okay what would I do yeah obviously I would link it and and push uh as much as I can even from the application and so on. But uh interesting I I would definitely if I decided now I would uh create a separate brand uh to do this. Uh actually we did it once in a in a in a couple years ago we used to uh have this company in the portfolio called Surfer Local. Uh now it was rebranded to Localo and it has uh different uh different people running it, different owners but uh we basically created an app for optimizing Google My Business profiles. Uh so the descript basically reverse engineering of what are the characteristics of other Google my business profiles in my area so I can you know adjust my description the business name some some other tactics I I wasn't I have a question would you would you would you push out hundreds of on your own website on surfer SEO hundreds or thousands hundreds Let's say let's say 300 in in let's say 300 in 3 months. 300 3 months. I would do it as guest post. I wouldn't push all of them. But you would have you would have like one guest writing how many of these of these articles? I mean I would just purchase it on link building marketplace and publish. But it would be but it would it would be on your website or on a No, no, no. Yeah, that's what Well, that's what I'm saying. You're not You wouldn't put You wouldn't put hundreds of self-promotional listicles on your own money on your money site on your on surfer SEO, which you have had since 2017 cuz it's a money site. You wouldn't do that tactic. You you wouldn't you wouldn't do that cuz it's too risky. Yeah, it could be. That's what that. However, if I call it out, if I if I created if I created uh a humanizer application now, I would do it. What do you mean a humanizer application? New new brand uh new company. Oh, yeah. Well, why not? It's not going to you don't Yeah. Have it on a different Google search console and if you want to just f around with the new website, f around and find out all day long. But I'm wondering how can you create 300 self-promoting list? It must be okay. I I imagine it like different ICPS, different categories, different use cases like best content optimization tool for agencies, best content optimization tool for you. Yeah, that's how that's how they do it. That's how they do it. Yeah. Yeah. I I want to I want to ask you um how this is this is a question that a lot of people care about. How should people use AI to make SEO content better and what shouldn't they do? I would focus on the research really. Uh I would like 95% of the tokens that surfer AI is using it is using to read is not using to write. So uh basically uh getting the information from whatever resource. So uh SER obviously ranking pages yes but also what Perplexity thinks what CHGPD thinks plus the sources that backed up Chad GPD answer the sources that backed up any other LLM answers. So in the end you end up with a list of documents that are either performing good in Google or AI searches or both. Then you read them all. Then you extract information from them all. Then you put it in general to specific order maximizing the intent alignment in the top section of the article because this is where the majority of the cited uh passages come from. Um and then as a last step you put it together in the context of your business. So creating really decent indepth brand identity as a context of writing that can bring this new information to the web. So first you match the consensus and then you top the consensus with something new uh that your business can give to the to the basically to the to the dish uh which is our article and this is like long story short a recipe for decent AI content. But you see people trying to make AI SEO content or SEO content with AI. What are the common mistakes that you see? I'm not even talking about just asking chat to write content. Uh uh because that's that's that's too obvious. Uh the biggest mistake I would say is that people are overengineering the process. Oh, interesting. Yes. Uh so they try to make it better and better and kind of go crazy about all of these different metrics like they are trying too hard. Uh and the problem is that um they will try to master the the topical map. They try to master all the connections between the pages and what they end up with is nothing published. So, uh they they basically try for so long uh instead of pushing it to the public that their pipelines are already outdated. So, they have to do it over again and over again yet forget to push. We have this this saying in Poland that like uh there are people on the construction side and they're so busy working with the wheelbarrow, you know, they forget to put things inside and uh this is this is what happens. They are running uh these uh improvements on the pipelines on the prompts uh yet they are too busy doing it they forget to push them on the actual website. So that would be the mistake is either on this uh stupid naive side pushing a lot without thinking at all or thinking too much and not pushing at all. Everything in between where is balance is good. So there's a lot of people throw around like good content in SEO. Just make good content, bro. Just make just make good content. If you were to give an actual I have my definition of what good content means and and it's a I think my definition is pretty I I like my definition. I'll share it with you after but I'm curious how would you define what good content in SEO means? Mhm. Uh so first thing first uh you have to provide the actual information that is useful and you have to do it quickly with alignment with the user intent. That's that's that's it. Like quickly tell what the hell do I do here? That's it. Uh if it's if it's the the criteria is met, uh to me it's a good content. If it tells me right off the bat, you're going to find this this and that and it's supposed to help you with the problem you've had. Right. Ah right. So I keep on reading. My my definition of good content is that is that the the only the only entity that can figure out if the content is good, it's not Google, it's not you, the creator, it's the visitor. And if if the content results in too high an amount of pogo sticking, so coming to the coming to your page saying, "No, no, no, this isn't what I want." And then going back to the search results and clicking on something else, that is bad content. Yeah. The worst. That's that's and and that's and whereas if if the visitor comes to your page from search and they don't do that because they get their answer that's good content. You know what's the problem I have with this definition? What I will challenge you a bit. Challenge me. Yeah. So the problem I have is that the pogo sticking can come from UX side of things. You can have the greatest content but you will bore. That's part of content. that's part of content. It's kind of all right if you put it uh this way. Uh if it's part of the content then then yes. So then we have to say that the UX is a really important part of the content as well. I believe that UX is very important in SEO. I've made many episodes on that. It it it makes uh it makes it or break it basically. Yeah. If you if you see this big ass here's here's you could you know you could have an amazing written piece of SEO content and if you're just using a ton of block paragraphs without w without enough line breaks people aren't going to want to read that either that's enough right that's enough to to to to uh to break it so it's really worth to emphasize on it uh that the UX is is basically half of the success of the content like the way it looks, the way it reads, and the way it's delivered. It's very important. I'm glad we we pointed it out. This is what What um what problem were you obsessed with before Surfer existed in H long time ago. With making money. Yeah, with making money. really uh I was I was working on the farms. I was uh putting together some furniture. I would I was working on the construction side. I would do whatever uh uh to to kind of uh make an impact. Um and surfer after a couple of years of of work, it it solved that it solved that problem for me. I had a job, real one. It's it's amazing to it's amazing to be self-made like that. I I don't I I I definitely uh am not grateful enough for what's going on, for what happened, for the for the journey uh for the journey we've had with uh with co-founders. Really really uh I used to think it was like always like that, you know, and you reminded me of it. uh right now and I'm kind of looking inwards and I'm thinking god damn I really was poor trying to you know figure out the things like the my car broke and I was like what the hell do I do now or I have to refill the gas and I look like okay uh let's refill for a 100 right and just to realize that for a couple of years I'm just refilling and when when the when the pump says like tick is full so I go and uh I need to be more grateful for that. That's that's for sure. Like these little things uh people people quickly uh are used to the good stuff really. It was actually with with surfer users as well. You know, we we put together this very very very first version where our job was to scrape the search results, break them down in HTML. So you see like how many H2s are there. It was moving the needle like many years ago. But so we did that you know and it was giving you huge time saver when you don't have to inspect look into type down in Excel and then compare like boom but like 3 months after we released people were like can't you maybe do it automatically so it tells me the most important elements I'm like holy that like you forgot you've been doing it manually. Uh so they get used to quickly. Uh, good stuff. So, so I did with refilling my gas tank. Really? Yeah. We need more gratefulness in our lives in general, I think. Yeah. What, what habits do you think make you effective as a founder or for like cuz there's also a bunch of founders who listen to this podcast and who maybe they're working I have people I have so many people listen to this podcast who are literally working on their own SEO tools and they're like sitting there. Okay, here we go. I got to pay attention to It's ADHD. Uh, I think so, too. I think I think so, too. And, you know, actually, like five minutes into this podcast, I'm like, "This guy has intense ADHD." I I had that thought. I have it too. It's all good, right? Yeah. It's all good, right? Uh, the good the good part is that when you have a bunch of co-founders, uh, there is a chance that some of them will not will not have ADHD. So, uh, if that's the case, you can actually, uh, and that's that's the advice. If if there's anyone listening and they are the advice is to is to find a way to get ADHD. Yes. It's it's good if you share the responsibility on on many things because the burnout is going to eat you alive quickly because of here here here and you are of of course you are in this continuous dopamine high because you put down the fire all the time, right? I'm putting down the fire. 5 minutes later I'm putting down the fire. But after a year of that you are doomed because like the body is too exhausted. Uh so I would say that uh it it is on one side it's a superpower. I I I can go speak on a conference and you know I can prepare my my my talk the day before and that's actually good. Uh and when I realized I'm not the one meant to be training for 30 days before ah my body my brain will work the way that I need a strong deadline and it needs to be tomorrow and if it's tomorrow I will do it and I will crush it but I need to explain it to myself first and when I figured it out well yeah okay this is the way you do it okay do it this way don't panic 30 days before so uh actually figuring it out uh how your brain works works uh how you reward yourself for success and uh like don't try to be average basically uh find your uh find your your your excel spots and if you have weaknesses find someone else who has these weaknesses as the high spots and then then you can you can do a lot. This is what we did basically. I want to get your take on this. This was actually a question that I wanted to ask at the beginning since you've seen how different content has gotten rewarded in the SERs and I asked I said like what's changed between 2017 and now in the SERs and you know the obvious answer there was okay there's a lot more AI features but what have you seen change with the types of content that is rewarded things that are no longer rewarded like they once were and things that are being prioritized now whereas they were not prioritized in 2017. Mhm. So it's uh it's basically more UGC now. Uh you see more YouTube videos, you see more social media being indexed as answers uh for like where to go, what to do, how to do uh whatsoever. and you have less and less uh of affiliate reviews uh because well there was this moment in time rest in peace uh and I feel sorry for everybody uh who lost uh their business uh it was like 30% of our customers uh so it as well um as as surfer uh pulled the trigger in Mai on Chiang Mai SEO conference In 2019 we went global really started to be recognized uh thanks to Matt Diggity. Thank you Matt. Um so you can imagine that a lot of community around Surfer or the affiliate marketers uh and well last years were really hard uh for that business model. Uh however uh it's kind of hacking the affiliate really that got lost like you know you create a fake website with review of hiking gear and you just review hiking gear and well what'sever uh next day I can review toilets. Uh, but if you are a real hiker and you walk around the peaks, you show them I slipped and you know what? This ice axe saved my ass because you see on the video and they ask, "Oh, this is a new type of Isax. What is this? I got it from Amazon, you know. This is still alive. this is still alive and it's holding strong not only on as a website but most importantly as a social media channels uh so I can see the migration from hacking affiliate business and you know you think about it actually good it's I feel sorry for the people who were hacking and lost but it's actually good for the internet user that they are gone I don't know if you agree uh but I I feel like it's a in general it's it's a good move for the people so that are real. I I said that for a long time. I said uh I I I'm like yeah I mean Google is prioritizing UGC because it's actually more helpful than than a fluffy affiliate piece. And it's like you can watch a YouTube video, get you could watch a YouTube short, get your answer in 30 seconds. Whereas if you click on an affiliate article within those 30 seconds, you're still reading the introduction, the long fluffy introduction. Attention span. Attention span is the thing now. And I feel like if you ask me about the future, I would say the attention span will be the the most important uh factor that is playing the role in how people consume content because it will get shorter and shorter. So old people will die, the new people will get into the business with money. Uh so they become consumers. So old consumers with long attention span will be gone. The more and more consumers will will will join with really short and we will have to adapt uh to that. Maybe maybe someday you know when you will be explaining new new stuff on your SAS it will be just a bunch of shorts. Uh I don't know may maybe a podcast will become 10 episodes 45 seconds. I have no idea. Uh but uh in general we will experience that uh the content will be consumed in a different way like like you said you see 30 seconds short on YouTube and you get the idea. Thank you so much. Yeah. I mean it's just it's just better that that wasn't a thing that that was possible 5 years ago because short form mobile content was still becoming a popular medium. It wasn't a popular medium at the time. And it's it's it's just I I think I think if this existed 10 years ago, searchers would still prefer It's just it's it's just it's not perfect for everything, but for getting an answer really quickly, it's way better than reading an affiliate article. It it is also what AI prefers. uh we ran a study uh on on quite a big sample and it turned out that 11% of the citations were coming from first 50 words of the article followed by another 8% from 100 and another 6% of 150 and it was like uh dropping uh so fast and after 500 words like you know fractional uh values of the citations. So uh it's uh it's a basically a quote from Robert Niko but he said there is like this token economy now. So everyone is trading how much information I can get for spending this amount of tokens and if you can give me the information in smaller amount of tokens I prefer you as a source because it's economically and if you translate it to the attention span is also more economically like justified if I only spend you know uh a little bit of my of my brain cells to get that instead of reading a book and then to realize ah 2 + 2 equals 4. Okay, so that's basically all about the economics. It's better for the searchers too because like if you're a searcher like we were talking about, you want to get your answer right away. And one of the biggest mistakes that SEOs make that I see is not giving the answer right away. And it could be it could be top of funnel or it could be bottom of funnel. give the answer literally before searchers have to start scrolling. Just one of the it's and that and that also like I tal I gave my my definition of good content is reducing pogo sticking. If you do that you reduce pogo sticking a lot because now you've given people an answer and then you can go deeper into the topic because you told them this is what you want. You know what or at least they don't go back to the search. Yeah, they finish the search. search with your website. And this is also good. Like you have 4 seconds of the user on your page. It can be actually good if you solve their problem. But if if they went back to the search, then you are screwed. Or they're going back to the search but they're searching something else and that's okay because you Yeah. But but at least they're not going and clicking on a a competing website. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's the that's the like the worst behavioral signals you can do. Do you think there's a future for affiliate websites with SEO? I think so, but it will be more towards um working with brands instead of uh silently. Well, that's not SEO. That's not SEO. That's developing your own audience and then and then uh using your own audience to promote brands on your website. But that's different from from pure organic from p pure organic uh search. So you say that uh is there is there a future for for let's yeah for for websites that want to be purely monetized through like affiliate and AdSense like a middleman. Yeah. Basically and and yeah and and and they're but they're publishing top offunnel content. We will see what will happen with link building. M but that may be their last thing to do. Uh so at least sell links uh from this website. There will be still people buying links and mentions. Uh so that that might be uh the thing. Um if it's going to work with ads and no I mean top of the funnel content is gone already. Yeah. Uh when when you when you when you give me 30 seconds of thinking, I say like, "Oh my god, no." I mean, top of the funnel is gone. What's the water boiling temperature? I'm not going to visit any website to get see it. Yep. So kind of sell back links rank on the third or or what what what I always say is just like vibe code vibe code assass you can already rank vibe code of assass and then do bottom ofunnel SEO because bottom ofunnel SEO the AI overview is still recommending a product the AI overview is not doing the thing that your SAS it's not the product itself right it's not the product itself and and yeah Google Google recently announced at Google IO like yeah look we you can build SAS in the search results now, but it's not going to it's not going to really give a searcher what they're looking for. And a lot of searchers don't want to build their own SAS. They don't want to have to iterate. They don't want to have to think about the technical requirements even if there the technical requirements are removed. They don't want to have to think about features. They just want a product and they want to use it now. They don't want to have to wait for something to be built. Let me do my thing. I don't want to solve everybody else's problem with the same problem. I just want to solve my problem. That's that's many people think they are a carpenter. They need the measurement on these uh beams whatsoever. And there is a SAS that calculates the angle. They don't give a [ __ ] about building a tool that calculates the angle for everybody, right? They just want the angle to be calculated for their next construction. And they want to make money constructing stuff, not building tools for other contractors. Uh that's that that's that's that's what I see uh here. Yeah. So there will be still there will be still room for that. Did you see did you see Google IO's uh the Google Yeah. the Google IO conference like announcements to what's coming. I was watching. No. Oh yeah. Some some of the things some of the things are crazy. So like Google gave an example uh of a user saying build a fitness tracker to so that I could like log uh what I do and what I eat and something or something like that. And then right there in the SER or maybe maybe it was a yeah I think it was in the SER is um the intent is understood and then a then like a fitness tracker is instantly built for the searcher to use and return to. And when I watch that first of all I'm like I it's not going to be instant. Second of all like when are we going to see this in the wild because I don't think we're seeing it in the wild anytime soon. Um, and third of all, like the average person just doesn't want to have to there's gonna the AI, it's going to do a good MVP job where it's like, wow, this is like really cool that AI can do this, but it's not going to be the type of thing that you want to use on a daily basis. Yeah. I mean, the amount of iteration you would have to That's what I'm saying. Like, you're a software founder. You know what's up. Yeah. Yeah. I mean uh it's good for basic stuff and they will probably like uh do uh do it uh like they they do for watching like a football matches, right? Also, somebody needs to actually use the language bill this. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's that's true. And uh instead like and it would be also not good. And that's expensive. Imagine Google's going to give this give give all of this for free. How many trees are falling? you know uh just uh just for that and but maybe they are just uh you know getting the demand for each area. Uh so they help with flights, they will help you with accommodation, why not help you with fitness, why not help you with health? Maybe they will figure out okay we have our own hardcoded solutions because we found out that the fitness or running or eating healthy is now trending so much that we will invest and hardcode but building it from scratch every time someone asks. Like it's like it's like you you you give Chad GPT a screenshot to type uh words that are there because you are too too too lazy, you know, typing on your own and reading. is like burning forests for nothing. Yeah, it's one of the many reasons why I wasn't too concerned about the Google IO announcements that people were really really really freaking out about. Uh I mean it is a red ocean in SAS now. Uh it was never like that. I think SAS is better than ever to be honest. I think SAS is great. I I still think SAS is a blue ocean. You think so? Yeah. I'm funding a new I'm funding a new SAS as well. and and in fact I think like uh yeah so basically you can you can just vibe code your own tools now the differentiator is is is now it's just marketing and there are still so many niches where people don't know how to do SEO and like so many niches within SAS where people don't know how to do Yeah, I agree with you on this on this part when it comes to a new product but uh for us when I see Okay. Well, okay. Yeah, but you're but dude, you're in the SEO niche. That's the hardest. You We are You and I are literally in the most one of the most difficult niches for marketing in general, let alone SEO, not just SEO. Like the the competition for surfer SEO. I mean, you are going up against Href's viral research reports. You are going up against Moz's legacy brand name. You're you're going up against Seamrush. You're like and and Adobe company now, right? What? Adobe company SEM Rush. Yeah. Yeah. Adobe now. So market. Yeah. Yeah. SEO SEO is the worst space to do SEO in. It is the hardest space to do SEO. Five, six years uh or maybe seven until we started getting traction from organic. We we knew from the very beginning what's the point of us blogging zero what's the point of us like doing SEO getting back links what's the point we never going to make it anyway uh but but after like five to seven years uh five to seven years we started to get uh to get traction uh from organic so yeah I really I really recommend to people if you if you just want to make money with like a product don't do it in SEO don't choose SEO as your niche that is the hardest niche to play in. And like I I see that actually all the time too. It was like um I I have people who watch the show or people who follow me on IG or Tik Tok or LinkedIn or whatever and they are new in SEO and they're trying to rank for SEO terms and it's you don't get me wrong, you can you can you can but you could take that effort and apply it to a niche that there's still a lot of money in and and then actually get results way faster and results that are way more durable because people aren't coming along trying to take your rankings all the time. Is SEO is the hardest niche to do SEO in. 100% agree. 100% agree. And uh you know uh the second hardest is when you go to the SEO conference and you try to sell SEO to other SEOs. Uh yeah, forget it. What what do you think matters more now? topical authority, back links or user behavior. So when I joined this train, jump on this train of SEO in general, it was all back links back then and we've seen the Google pull the lever towards content. So it was like all content almost all like 80 70% of the content compared to backlinks and the others. Uh but uh after that content inflation, AI and stuff and Google really spending [ __ ] ton of money on compute, we are back to the times where it's all about brand reputation. It's all about backlinks, trust signals, behavioral signals and only then the content. The content now is basically if you don't have the content, okay, you cannot rank for sure. However, content itself without brand, without authority, without positive signals will give you very little unless you are in a very incompetitive niche. So yeah, I'm I'm not happy saying that though. is mean like it's it's it's my my business that is getting hit from like general penalty to everybody because I was exploiting this area and this area just got smaller impact on overall rankings it is enabler without it you can't but with this itself also you can't uh in most cases but yeah I see that uh brand uh back links that's that's the biggest differentiator now content is just an enabler. I think it's I think the number one most important thing is relevance. Number two is user behavior. Number three is backlinks. That's I I think if you're I think let's say if you're if you're playing in like not SEO, you're not in the SEO niche and you don't even have a like you have a relatively new website and you're going after let's say you're going after like easy keywords. It's just relevance. You you just need you you just you really just need relevance and then you want if you're ranking you don't want pogo sticking. Yeah. If there's no competition then uh quite easy then but yeah but but here but what what what does competition even mean? Competition means that there's a lot of relevance in the service someone that means other people yeah that means other people are targeting the keywords only then when you equalize the relevancy like you are equally relevant because it's the number one most important thing because it's the most important thing and then it becomes then it becomes okay now it's like user behavior and now it's backlinks. That's that's what I said. Uh that is an enabler like without it you can't but when everybody has it and it is kind of commodity now especially in in harder niches uh relevancy is commodity uh you got like hundred of the pages kind of the same competing for the same then a lot of other factors come into play. If someone only has 90 days to grow organic traffic, what would you prioritize? Aged domain. That's it. Find an age domain. Spend 90 days finding aged domain. You will get back links. You'll get reputation. You don't get the brand name. But uh well, if you got 90 days, that's the best shortcut you can take. What do you what do you look for when you're buying an age domain? So it's not dead for a long time. Uh so it has a relevancy. Uh actually first relevancy and then if it's not dead for like 5 years, if it's dead for a year, 2 years, uh easy uh and the potential to rebuild it uh if it's if it's possible to rebuild it uh the way it was and still correspond with your business. So that that's that's what I would do. Are you looking are you looking at its ranking potential like before before it's before it shut down? What kind of keywords was it going was its rankings going down or was it going up or was it staying flat? Uh maybe not that. I would just look uh the potential like what was the strongest keyword it was ranking before and is this keyword anyhow relevant to what I'm going to sell on this website now? Uh if if that's the if that's the case. So I see uh the keyword that makes sense to my business maybe not necessarily as a product but maybe it's a even if it's a tofu content that is in the industry I would say I take it because I can then rank it again send strong internal links maybe it has some backlinks ideally it has backlinks ideally it has backlinks from some government educational ideally ideally ideally is the dom domain that is after some uh commercial even like imagine a situation there's a bank you know and it's putting together like a new new website there's an action about I don't know like a special promo and they put together a new like findyourAcount.com right uh and they put it together uh they run a campaign tw 12 months a lot of backlinks from the from the banks a lot of backlinks from the government and so on. Uh because it's like ideally uh nonprofit maybe as well. So you got like a a huge huge amount of that and then the project ends and it's dead. You want to jump on it uh because it will give you uh assets that are really hard to replicate uh unless someone does the same thing. So that will be also something I would look for in an age domain. If the assets that are built to the page, meaning back links and traffic and keywords it was ranking for if they are easy to replicate. If if they are not, it's a it's a gem. Obviously, it will be hard. But if you got 90 days, you can find something. What are what are three SEO opportunities people are sleeping on right now? uh rewriting their old content. that's the that's the that's the thing. yeah, great great answer. Uh selling uh selling citations uh from their pages, not selling links because links kind of so selling selling brand mentions. you have a list of a lot you know uh I think it was Nathan Gotch who's who came on this podcast and said this a lot of niche bloggers don't realize the value they have in some of their uh in in some of their listicles making money for free basically you give a backlink you devaluate kind of you know you get rid of unmeasurable amount of power at least uh what like you you have like a 10 back links on your page, you got another one, so you have 11. So you split uh so all the others are weaker and weaker. So yeah, you're saying that you're saying don't give the link, give the brand mention and you can sell and that gets and that gets recommended because the brand mention alone is enough to get a company recommended in AI. Yeah. And there is even this link marketplace in Poland, Link House, uh who is going after this. So you got like a 100,000 websites and they realized that some of these websites can sell brand mentions for cheaper or some of the websites that were against selling links are not against selling brand mentions because it is not uh you know contradicting with Google guidelines whatsoever if anybody cared but well uh so uh they are not they're not feeling like they are violating some rules as much. Uh so uh it opens up uh this market opens up and I would I would definitely say uh jump on this train. So we we've got two u the third one install cloud code. I did recently I have to admit I did recently I was like holy [ __ ] I was living under a rock. What what is what is what have been the biggest changes? What has been the biggest changes with cloud code to your SEO workflows? Uh so uh the biggest change is that uh our users go there instead of going to the applications. So we have to rethink the way we actually are still in the process. So building MCP, building API to kind of be in the game because I know I cannot win if there is someone who can vibe code their own product that will be exactly the way they always wanted without uh dealing with the scale of 10,000 users that will start beeping on your buzzer if it's broken for 5 minutes. You are the only user so you know it's compiling it going to be better, right? So you have a little a lot less limitations in this area. So I know I cannot win this battle. So I will join this battle. So instead of trying to convince them, no, you shouldn't be using cloth. We've got everything in surfer. Is that surfer would be happy to join your clo gang and give the best stuff we have. So you don't have to do it on your own in cloth because we are good at scraping extraction and all kinds of stuff that you will have to write and maintain. We got it for you. So yeah, that's the that's the biggest change in the processes I see. SEO is one of those niches where people actually do want to vibe code their own their own solutions and they want to iterate and they want to make changes and they want to get distracted and and they don't care if it's immediate they want they want to actually vibe code their own thing. Don't you think there is uh over representation of ADHD people in SEO? Oh, totally 100 in like uh yeah, I was I was I was having a call with somebody yesterday and he was asking my advice on how to how to hire an SEO. And one of the things that I said as I I said I recommend looking for somebody who is ADHD, OCD, and like has a crazy amount of focus. And you like, yeah, there's a there is a crazy over amount of over over representation of ADHD in SEO. I'm not sure why. Why why does SEO attract so many people with like so I have it, you have it. David Quaid, who's been on this show many times, he has he pardon continuous change like never ending story is never the same. Maybe, but I think I think the principles of SEO actually have really been they haven't really changed much for the for the last 10 plus years. I'm not sure. I I think what it is is the it gives you this ability to like cuz when you're doing research, when you're doing keyword research, for example, you have like a million different websites open. You're looking at all this different language. You're looking at all this different data. And you love that. You love being surrounded by all this data and research and and niches. instant impact especially back in the days. So when we've been like optimizing a page, we change the H2, we go to search console, we request indexation, we see ah it goes up now I redo it. Now it's harder to get that because you have to wait longer do all the things you don't know what exactly made the impact unless you do tests but you have to be patient so you are not uh and so on and so forth. But I feel like it could attract at the very beginning uh the feedback loop that was really short. You make a change. You see the impact and the impact is real. You see it you can touch it almost kind of uh with your with your cursor. Uh you can touch it. You see it like okay I made it. Good. Dopamine flows. Move on. Next one. I want to get I want to get your thoughts uh before you go on programmatic SEO and um when you think programmatic SEO works and when it doesn't work and where because especially when it doesn't work because I think more often than not it doesn't work. There are two wolves in me, you know. Uh, one is like these black hat guy uh who do a [ __ ] ton of that but then uh the other one shows up and say bro your website is 9 years old uh 25% of the revenue is coming from organic so you better watch out you know so uh uh and so programmatic SEO where it works I will tell you it works in sports betting. Uh it works in sports betting. Uh you got uh a lot of recency. There will be there will be world cup right soon. So you have so many matches. You will have so many results. You will have so many potential bats and combinations. Everything has to be put to together quickly with recency with like no time. There is a quarter final ending and boom, a second later, you can already find a bet on the semifinal and you only found the semifinalists a second ago. Uh, and I I I met some folks on LCO Vibes uh a couple days ago. Uh, and they were talking about uh about that specifically uh where uh you had this huge sports event with a lot of potential betting combinations and this is where the programmatic was working like crazy. There is no other way to do it. Like there's no other way to do it manually. What do you think it is? uh about Poland that has so many great SEOs. Why? Like uh we were talking about this before we started recording. I I've spent a year living in Poland. I lived in Vertev, Warsaw, Gadonsk, and Kraov. And uh I' I when I was living there, this I met amazing people in SEO. The competition is crazy. I mean uh I I've been working in the Polish SEO agency. That was my beginning uh of SEO. And the competition on the market was was huge. And we always thought that uh in many cases we were somewhat ahead of uh of the rest of the world. Like the techniques that we were discussing were discussed like a year later globally. I'm like guys now you are doing it. We've been doing it for for a year. I don't know why is that though. You want to you want to hear something? You want to hear something crazy? So, I'm from I'm from I'm from New York and I ran I started the New York City SEO Meetup Group. Uh, and I actually think SEOs are like despite NYC being one of the most expensive places in the world. I think uh SEO talent is definitely not the best. I think like Oh, I guess what what I'm trying to say is there's a lot of dumb SEOs in NYC. I've met a lot of like and and not as many SEO killers as I have met there's like a higher percentage of SEO killers in other places. Maybe that's just because SEO because NYC is so big and there's so many people who are hustling. That's that's possible as that's that's possible as well. Talking it out loud now. And it's like also who are the types of people who go to who go to SEO meetups? A lot of them are people who are or or yes a lot of them are people who are learning whereas like I I consider myself uh pretty expert at SEO and I don't go to conferences at all. I'm not interested because for me you're like I'm not gonna really learn I'm not going to learn that much about learning bro I will tell you a secret it's not about learning that's the thing that's the thing I mean u I feel like we do a lot of business on on these events and it is also a type of let me yeah it is type of a holiday uh to some extent uh you you meet with the same often you meet with the same people and you just enjoy and exchange information, but it's not the information that's on the stage. Uh it's often the information that uh it's at the parties at the after parties. Somebody somebody's drunk. Let me tell you let me tell you the let me tell you the thing that I figured out that's going to get that's that's going to get banned in a in a couple of months. kind of kind of kind of kind of uh kind of things like that. Uh I I'm still thinking why Poland has so many SEOs, but I I have no idea. I they don't even go global like mo and that's that's what's strikes me really is that a lot of Polish SEOs live in a like work in a Polish sauce. Uh they stay in Poland. They make Polish Poland SEO more and more competitive. while if they looked around they'll realize they are actually better than many other people that are earning in USD or euro or any stronger currency that is true market and I don't know if there is any Polish SEO looking at at this listening to to to us go global guys go global uh it's I have a lot I have lots of SEOs in Poland who who watch my stuff and and who listen to this show. So yeah, whatever. I will I I I will say like uh something that I noticed living in in Poland for as long as I did is I just felt like everything was done well. Like the food was made was made really well. The streets were very clean. The malls were very clean. Like everything everything was was clean. It was constructed well. It it was cared for. There was attention to detail. After 2000s, 2019 is when I first Gdansk Gadansk was the first place I went to in Poland. And that was in 2019. Last 10 years, Poland is booming like crazy. And I can see it uh when I enter war. So I look at the city, I'm like, god damn, it's a Polish city. Uh and it looking so good. And uh when I hear opinions like yours uh they are quite common actually. Uh say Poland is is nice, is clean, is cozy, it's safe, you know, all of these adjectives, you're like, "Oh, I'm so proud of it then." Uh, but I didn't realize it. Well, like I'm I mean like in New York in New York City just last week there was this like crazy monsoon flood where dirt dirty water was literally like a in a tsunami flooding through the streets. It it people it was up to people's it was up to people's uh people's shins on their legs. It was it and this was just last week and things like this happen all the time. Yeah. All the time in in New York. New York is a very strange city because New York is so big and there's so many different there's so many different aspects like in sure Warsaw has a lot of poor areas too. New York City has way more poor areas but New York City also has way more affluent areas. And there's just way more of everything in New York City. And I think I see. I think that's what it is. I think there's just everything and more of that. I've never I've never I've never dissected it like this, but like Yeah. Why do I meet so many great SEOs uh when I when I travel? Oh, it's because it's because like the types of people who I'm meeting with are people who can speak English well and that's why they want to meet with me. And then they're if you if you can learn English pretty well, you can also learn SEO pretty well. And they like they're connected on LinkedIn. they're they're plugged into the global scene and it's like, yeah, you're going to do things well. And then in New York City, like we're talking about, there's just way more of everything. There's way more great people and there's way more really bad people. You know what? Knowing English is quite the differentiator in Poland. Uh, and in New York, it has no uh application. Yeah. Yeah. If Yeah. It's very important. Miho, you're awesome. This was this was this was so much fun. Yeah, absolutely. Thank you for having me. Really nice. Really nice. Really nice. Maybe we meet on one of the conferences. Maybe you will change your mind. Dude, let's go. Let's go. Let's go party. Let's go party in in Vertzsw. There's uh Dude, for No, for real. Like uh man, some of my some of my favorite restaurants and cafes in the world are in Vert. There's this amazing one. There's a boat on on the river and there's this white boat on the river. So, it's perfect. I would go there with my laptop every day and get work done. All right. Anyway, you're great. All rivers, you know. Pardon? Is all rivers. Udra the river is like Oh, yeah. Yeah. Well, dude, I was there when the udra was was flooding and people were taking the sandbags and putting them everywhere. And I bet you some of those and it was it was that that that was one thing that kind of annoyed me was that people like overprepared for this flood that didn't happen and they put these sandbags everywhere. actually you know why there is a documentary about big flood uh you can watch it and then you will realize no I dude I I I I saw I know I know what's up let me tell you what's amazing so this podcast I've done this podcast for 159 days in a row this is 1 159 of this podcast 159 days in a row I was doing this podcast while living in Rozsworth and so there was this this flood and people thought that the Odra river was going to flood and it was going to flood into the center where I lived and it people weren't going to be able to to to like it was going to I was worried that it would knock out power and be and if it knocked out power and Wi-Fi I wouldn't be able to get my podcast out every day. So I took a and I made an episode about this because of make the podcast every day and I took a lastm minute flight to Warsaw so that just so that I could keep the podcast going consistently and I could keep my social videos going consistently. So, I I was I was getting my haircut and the barber was like, "Listen, my my friends are in the fire department. They're saying the Odra River is going to flood really bad." Um, and I'm like, "Do you think Wi-Fi could get knocked out?" And he's like, "Dude, it like electricity could get knocked out. Wi-Fi could get knocked out. It's go it they're saying this is going to be really bad. I'm I'm closing the shop after you to to go and bring sandbags down to the river and to barricade up the the other stores and help people." And so I went home after that haircut and I immediately bought a flight to Warsaw and in three hours I was in Warsaw just so I could keep the podcast going consistently. Wow. I didn't know you do it every day. Every single day. And that was several years ago. And I have not missed a day since starting the podcast, 159 days ago. Yeah. No, serious now. You cannot stop. You cannot stop. I can't stop. I really can't. This is the most important thing that I do when I wake up every day that I I make it. And that people Someone asked me yesterday, "How do you come up with content every day? I just make myself. There's just no no other way around it." Wow. Big one. Big one. Well, it's big having you on the show cuz again, like you're a really well-known person in SEO and and surfer SEO is really well known. So, um yeah, thank you again everyone. Check out uh and where where should people follow you? Uh it's my LinkedIn. They will find me there. Thank you so much. It'll be in the description. Thank you. Thank you, Miho. See you. This is Yeah, this is episode 159 of the Edward Show. 159 days in a row doing this show. If you watch us on YouTube, thank you so much for watching. If you listened on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, thank you so much for listening and I will talk to you again tomorrow. Bye