Managing 90 SEOs: What Actually Scales (And What Breaks)

Travis talent Yas Hog introduced us by saying you previously managed over 90 SEOs at Brain Labs. Yes. Yes. Was that concurrent or total? Uh that was that was at at the same time it was uh it was SEOs, it was CRO's, it was content team. Um it was a it was a big operation. That's crazy. 90 Yeah. Oh my gosh. Uh, so what would what would surprise I I think the first question that I want to ask is just like what would surprise people most about leading that many SEOs? What what was it actually like? First I'll I'll say it was really a a pleasure and a highlight of my career. Um, you learn so much when you're operating at that at that scale. I I think the biggest thing that I learned going through that process is how important process is, building a vision is, uniting everyone around that shared vision and then basically building systems that allow everyone to operate from that that same information. Yeah. Yeah. I'm going to ask you about your systems in a in a few moments. I also want to know um you have you interviewed uh a lot of a lot of SEOs too. Oh. Oh. I mean over the 10 years I've been in SEO, I've probably interviewed close to a hundred SEOs, if not if not more. Oh man. You know, I feel like I've interviewed that many SEOs too on this podcast. That probably yes. Although your your conversations might be a little more fun than maybe. Yeah. But who knows? The job interview conversation can sometimes be fun. Um, what what what skills are underrated in SEO hires today. Oo, there's a lot of new SEOs or people who want to actually get SEO jobs who listen to this podcast, too, in addition to lots of experienced ones. Oo, amazing. I love this question because I love helping people move up in their career step, get more money through a promotion. Uh the the biggest skill that I would say is underrated is communication bar none. Uh to to me that is something that no tool, no AI uh is going to take away from you. And being able to communicate is ultimately how you influence other people to make decisions, whether that's clients, whether that's executives. uh and that is ultimately how you move up quickly in your career. Yeah, I was thinking that too when I was preparing questions uh for this episode. I was I was like man with that many SEOs like you need to have just the most legit systems for communication and just people who are good at communicating, people who who do it often. Um, do you have do did you ever like advise your your SEOs, your employees on how to develop their their communication skills? Well, 100%. Um, so yeah, just just to give you some context of the structure. So I was managing director of AI SEO by the by the time I left. AI SEO for us was an umbrella that included um all of the website SEOs, all of the digital PR folks, all of the content team, CRO team, so on so forth. Um, so I had the heads of each of those teams report into me and uh through my one-on- ones with them, I would frequently give them feedback on here's how to communicate. Let's present this information in this way to this client or this executive to get this outcome. Um, but beyond that, I would frequently workshop with them. How do we build systems around communication? What is our onboarding process? What do the monthly um reporting calls look like? What do the weekly status calls look like? How do we work with the client partners and teams? Um what do they own in communication versus what what does our team own? This method of marketing is so effective, I had to make sure it wasn't against Google's rules before I kept using it. It's a form of SEO I call compact keywords. Whereas most SEO focuses on putting up articles to answer questions, how, what, when, compact keywords focuses on putting up dozens of pages that sell to searchers who are actually looking to buy. These pages rank on Google and convert so much better than normal that when I discovered this years ago, I couldn't believe this was allowed. It's less work, too. The average compact keywords landing page is only 415 words. Compact Keywords is a 13-hour deep course on getting sales with SEO. A customer said, "Compact Keywords contributed to a $4,000 sale within the first six weeks." Another customer said, "Give it to a junior employee. Have them follow it exactly as Edwards laid out. You don't have to do anything, and you're going to gain a six-f figureure SEO level employee just by having them go through this course. Compact Keywords is about setting up an SEO funnel that brings you sales for years and years and years. It works with AI. It's less work than traditional SEO and it makes way more money. You can get it now at compactkeywords.com. Back to the podcast. There any exercises that you did like to help people prepare their thoughts or things like that? Yeah, so I'm a big proponent of mock calls, mock um mock experiences. And yes, it's really tedious. Yes, it could be a little silly when you know in the very beginning you go ring ring um to get get everyone in that mindset, but uh I have found as with anything communication is is a muscle and the more reps you go through the the easier it gets uh to where eventually you can um show up on a podcast like this and feel really calm and collected, right? Um, and that's the goal that we ultimately want for all of our team members. Um, regardless of experience or or age. It's um I mean it's it's crazy. Like I've had actually a bunch of different editors for this podcast and one thing I can't deal with is like editors who who don't communicate well and I'm like just like let me know like cuz we're in different places especially when you're in different places when you have employees who are remote it's that much more important. I'm just like at the beginning especially let me know when you start working. Let me know what what you're doing anything that you run into. you you can't share too much with me like share as much as you can and then you you start to trust people and then when you trust people you can scale back the communication because it's like okay I know that you got this you don't have to share every little update with me at the beginning but like if just commun there were so many times where if an employee just communicated properly with me we would have avoided hours or days worth of headaches 100% %. Yeah. I mean to 90 like 90 SEOs and CRO that's like what was it like getting everyone to work together properly? Um there were growing pains absolutely just ju and and just to provide more more context I was at Brain Labs four and a half years. Um when I joined Brain Labs that team was about 15 people one five. My gosh. And within those four and a half years, yeah, it grew to 90 people. So there were there were a lot of growing pains. Um but what what I would say is um I really had to wrap my arms around the entire end to end employee process. So that included being a part of interviews and totally revamping what questions do we ask, what is our process for interviews, so we can actually find people who um are going to have the right skill set coming through that door. Once they're through the door, I totally revamp that that employee onboarding experience. um you know there was basically no training program uh for any level when I joined and by the end you know for um entrylevel roles it was a 3month training program where uh we flew people together to all be in the in the same room. Um and then for more senior level roles there was still a training program where they were doing check-ins with me and um their manager, their manager's manager, so on so forth. So then we could um get everyone on the same page quickly and and and get them spun up quickly. So uh being able to control that employee life cycle and really have a have a hand in that is how we were able to find people who are great communicators, great great fits for the team. What was um what was this what was a three-month onboarding like um for me or for the for the employee? for the employee. Yeah. Yeah. So, um I had the pleasure just before I I left, so back in November, um I flew down to Boris to be the personal trainer for for this team. Um and it is I think all of them would say that it is very difficult. It is like you know it's basically like taking an accelerated uh university course. um in 4 weeks time you go from knowing very little about SEO because most of these folks were just out of college uh to being able to run audits better than you know any most other uh most other people who have been in SEO for two to three years and that's my that's my goal uh going through that that training program and um I would say the first week was a lot of brighteyed, bushy tailed, you know, super excited to learn about the theory and all of that. Um, the second week when we started to get into the technical SEO stuff, there were some, you know, some overwhelmed statements, uh, because it was just so much information to take in. Um, and then by the end I was super impressed with how these folks were really able to to communicate the their their findings, their recommendations. Um they learned uh how to interpret data and understand data including things like seasonality and you know um how to understand if it's if it's uh because of a one-off sale or if this is a a a staying trend. Um and that is to to me the the most important thing someone can learn going going through that process. What if if you're if if you're like a if someone with not a lot of SEO experience, what's the fastest way to to learn SEO? I mean, since you were It sounds like you were training a bunch of people who didn't really have any SEO experience. So, what's the fastest I have a I have a thought on that, but I'm curious what your thought is. Yeah, I'm I'm a big proponent of uh with most things in life, you have to do it. So, it it it has to be hands-on a and you can read all of the Moz guides or AHFs or whatever guides out there and you're still not really going to know how to do it until you have your hands on a website and you're actually doing it. Um, so that was uh through through that training experience. Um, every day was a um in the morning it would be training like a college course. Then in the afternoons it was it was workshops where folks were given an assignment. They had to have hands-on experience of here's how I use this tool. Here's how I analyze this data. So to me that is the fastest way to um get get up to speed on this type of work. I was thinking that too. What um in fact I make editors for this for this podcast get websites to do SEO with. I'm like this is my SEO course. I want you to learn my method. I want you to learn how to do SEO. then you'll be able to edit things a lot better. Um, get a site, actually have something to sell. It's I think it's better to learn SEO when you have something to sell and you're trying to do SEO to make money. Um, yeah. What were So, were you giving people websites or were they making their own websites? Um, yeah. So, we would assign uh client work. um obviously with oversight from senior managers so on so forth. But yeah, it was it was very um real work that that they were doing. Um and then we also uh through throughout this time period let them choose a brand that they felt really strongly about or or you know some type of pull to. Um, and that was almost like their mock their their mock website, their mock client. Um, yeah. So, it was it was a bit of both. If you had to build a worldass SEO team from scratch today, what are the first three hires that you would make? Oh, um, okay, let's see. And, and we're talking on the agency side or in-house? Uh, I don't know. Both. Let's do both. Both. Okay. I'm curious to hear how it's different, too. Yeah, I I do think it's very different. And here's how. So, on the agency side, my first hire would be a generalist, someone who's um been in the SEO industry for over 10 years, has experience communicating with clients, hiring teams, leading teams, as well as doing the SEO work. Uh my second hire would be um someone who is uh really dialed in on the digital PR aspects and the um uh probably a little more general like digital PR and content. Um and then my third hire would be an assistant to those folks. Wow. Um yeah and I'm I'm happy to explain a bit more about my thinking on that. Explain everything that you want to explain. Yeah. So I I think hiring a generalist SEO is going to be for both in-house and agency is going to be your your biggest business gain that you can possibly get. That person views the world uh you know in terms of 8020. They're focusing on what 20% of work is going to have 80% of the impact. Um, but they're not going to be the super detail oriented person who's arguing over a comma or no comma, right? Um, and that's what you want in that in that in that second hire. Um, that's going to have the the largest business game. finding that digital PR like content strate strategist. That person is going to be how you um get the brand's name out there. And I think it's always been important. It's especially important in a world of of AI search uh where website traffic is trending down um and zeroclick traffic is trending up. You want all of the press mentions. You can get all of the omni channel multimodal strategies on YouTube and Tik Tok. You you can get and that person can help strategize that. And then at that point you have two rock stars who can kind of own their lane. You want to enable them through more support. And um I I think if you're only hiring three folks um the the best way to do that is to hire an assistant. So then those people can become more capable, do more things and then that also builds up your training pipeline. Uh and that person in two or three years can become one of them. Uh and you can you can then hire more folks from there. That's a crazy answer. And I like the generalist approach, too. Cuz like I've seen a lot of people focus way too much on the details, get caught up, and waste precious time that they should be spending getting results. I've seen that all the time. It drives me crazy. It's this minor change really doesn't matter. Or uh we don't need to focus on the minutia of keyword cannibalization right now. We need better links. We need more links. We need uh more relevant content or better keywords that have more intent. Uh and and digital PR. So, I'm actually I'm curious now um like what are your top your top digital PR methods or or link building methods or what have you seen your top employees in these areas do? Yeah, for sure. So, um, this was a late addition to the Brain Labs team. Uh, so in my 4 and a half years there, we didn't add a DPR focus until probably two and a half three three years into my my tenure there. Um, and that was largely due to budget. That was largely due to Brain Labs wasn't totally known for that. So, we didn't get a we didn't get a ton of inbound, but it really became important to win RFPs and pitches to have that skill set natively on our team, not just like as an as an add-on. Really. And what I learned going through that process is all of the traditional backlinking methods of uh trying to reclaim uh broken back links or brand mentions uh unlin mentions. None of that [ __ ] works anymore. Um the you have to do it at such a volume. Uh, I'm talking like tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands of of outreach in order to see any meaningful Well, to also to be fair, you're not working with startups. No, these are enterprise level companies like Microsoft, um, Lego, AT&T. Yeah. Yeah. Their their link their link profiles are their backlink profiles are enormous. So, yes. Yeah. at that scale, it's like you made you get a couple fixes and it's a little drop in a in a huge ocean. 100%. So, the DPR strategies that did work really well were really content driven and content focused. So, um building out uh datadriven white papers, building out um uh unique infographics and so on so forth and using those as assets to basically pitch journalists. And one of my favorite methods is say you have a huge data set and you can split it up by country, you can split it up by state, you can split it up by demographic, and then all of a sudden basically any industry, any local or national um um publication, you have that angle to to reach out to them um with that particular data point. So that's that's really how one, you know, data set or one asset can can turn into a a huge DPR strategy and campaign. Dude, I'm I'm such a fan of linkable assets and uh more so like a lot of pe a lot of people hear linkable assets and they just think like a basic calculator. Yeah. And there's like um there's so much more that you that you can do and research papers studies like you like you shared but really like creative things as well like um an example is uh so before comm the comm app meditation app they had uh it was called they they launched and it was called do nothing for 2 minutes.com. Oh my gosh. And yeah, and and I wouldn't say this was a traditional linkable asset because this is what led to the comm app and it eventually I think it or maybe commap was already live but then they had a button that says like want to get better at meditation try comm and then eventually they three redirected do nothing for 2 minutes.com to calm but what it was was stare at a sunset for 2 minutes there's a sound of waves waves lapping on the beach and there's a countdown in the middle that's it and if you move your mouse mouse or do anything, the countdown resets. Do nothing for 2 minutes.com. This got I think it was like 384,000 backlinks. It just went viral on its own. This was before commiss was like, "Wow, Comm is pitching me." It was just a creative thing that they shared. And then they were able to take that and 301 redirect it. And there's so many so many of these examples. I'm just And now because of vibe coding, you can if you once you get like the setup with linkable assets, you can spin these up so fast 100%. Yeah. And and so Okay. So you have people who are doing linkable assets and then you're pitching them to journalists and you're doing you're doing what? Yeah. What did you have any other linkable assets that you saw like that absolutely crushed it that could inspire people to do their own like that that what you shared with the studies and personalizing it's personalizing too is so important for outreach so crazy important people God when people send like cookie cutter templated emails to journalists I want to pull my hair out I'm like do you not understand that you are burning your email you are getting sent to spam and if they do read it they're going to hate you and they're they're going to hate your brand. Yeah. 100 100%. The the other thing I've learned is um you need to personalize it to that individual journalist, too. Yeah, keep in mind just like any of our LinkedIn uh inboxes are filled with people trying to pitch us services for a journalist it's that times 10 because their job is literally to uh be pitched ideas and then summarize those ideas into into whatever publication they work for. So, uh that is super important to really understand what does that individual journalist talk about, what do they write about, what are they interested in, um how can you kind of piggyback on some of their other topics. That's ultimately how you get picked up. And then most importantly, building that relationship over time. Uh it's so much easier to to get linked if if you have um and this is why I I think digital PR agencies that are very niche in this do so well because they have those relationships to basically you know call up their friends and say hey would love for you to link to this client is doing really cool stuff so on and so forth. Um, I I used to think calculators were like a slam dunk in the DPR world. I think since Vibe coding has come out, it's really raised the bar of what type of assets are actually worth a link versus not. Um, and what what type of assets are um meaningful to to folks. Um, a basic, you know, mortgage calculator is no longer going to be that way. Um, I have yet to see folks um, really take advantage of the creativity that can come out of those vibe coding tools. Like why don't we create a mortgage calculator that's also a a you know an Angry Bird game or something uh that that allows someone to like you know have more interactivity with it. I think that's the that's the type of risk that a lot of brands are not taking and it's it's costing them in my opinion val valuable P PR um from from taking those types of risk. Yeah. The creative the creative ones. I shared this one too a couple days ago which is like Canva has a color palette generator. Simplest thing in the world. Drag a photo in. It tells you the four dominant colors with the hex codes for each color and then you can use those to make cool designs. That's it. That's all it is. Drag an image in, get the four dominant colors that got I think like like a 7.1,000 backlinks. Wow. Something. Yeah. Yeah. One of one of my favorite is um Lego and I'm I'm totally going to butcher what they call it now, but it it's like Lego create and it's a bunch of user generated submissions on like look at this cool thing that I created and generated linkable assets or like uh where you you're using user generated data. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Sorry. Yeah. Yeah. So like that and and that is a one not only is that linkable that's socially sharable, right? because someone can look at that and be like, "Oh, I want to create this." And um yeah, I I just think that kind of stuff is so cool. And um brands today are not really thinking of those strategies. I I I feel like for a long time we've been put in such a box. I'm really waiting for like the renaissance of marketing creativity, marketing risk, uh especially as AI tools continue to raise that bar on all all types of content. Yeah. Yeah. Uh something something that I share is um if you're if you first of all if you have like a a random SAS or if or making a linkable asset it is so beneficial to put in a share feature to allow users to actually share links around that are on your domain. Yeah. And like I've personally seen that do incredible things for SEO because now your users are building links for you. Like Yes. Come on. It's Yeah. Um well and and the ju just just the very very last thought I I have here is journalists are people too. So they have their own LinkedIn feeds, they have their own Facebook feeds, etc. uh and if they see a bunch of people are commenting or sharing this this asset then that is more information for them to uh to utilize that asset in an upcoming piece. Um that this is also why having high performing content on your own domain on your own website is also really important because journalists Google for statistics and information just like anyone else and if you are that known resource or you're popping up in that AI overview, you're much more likely to get those natural links. True. That's so true. You see that all the time is that they're just doing research and then you your whatever you have pops up and then there's just like Yeah, we'll share this. Yeah, 100% on that. Um what man, I'm just I'm I'm actually, you know, I'm curious because you've seen so many weird things happen with SEO. What are what are some of the weirdest things that you've seen? I was going to ask I want I want to ask you too like more questions on like hiring and managing that many SEOs and processes, but I'm just I'm I'm just curious like what are some of the weirdest things that you've seen in SEO having done it for so many companies? Uh yeah, with this many SEOs. Um Oh, man. I think I think we probably all have experiences of a a client emailing us or coming on a call being like, "Oh, we just migrated our entire website." Right? So, that's uh that's pretty weird and no one should do that. You should always have an SEO involved whenever you're seeing clients that have migrated without SEOs involved. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Um so, yeah, that that's happened a a few times. It's gotten better over the years. Um I especially lately I've had a lot of clients buy the um CCTLDs and then uh almost transition their entire website to to a different CCTL go from com to.ai. Um and had to have a lot of like walking off the ledge conversations when it when it came to that. Um, yeah, I think the last one I would say this one was very personal and very weird. Um, it was many years ago, but we were reviewing a backlink report and the local LGBTQ plus Chamber of Commerce linked to this uh to this car dealership because this car dealership had donated money to to this chamber of commerce. Seemed great. uh the director of marketing was really really upset that there was a link from a quoteunquote gay website to uh to their dealership and I'm gay. So that was a very weird experience of why is the director of marketing upset? that's a backlink. Not exactly. Yeah. Like a backlink from a really great organization, you know. Um Yeah. No, he he just aligning on values and that's not the values of the car dealership. And they were based in Texas, right? So, and this was many years ago. I I hope his uh mind has changed since, but um that is Yeah, those are some weird experiences I've I've seen in my time. What's um so so you had websites that wanted to shift entirely move their dotcoms to ais. Can you talk about that? Um yeah, I can't because it's still happening a lot. You still happening a lot. Why is that why like um I mean why is why would you say that's a mistake when you're talking them off of it? Yeah. So the um anytime you make any change to a URL, URL redirects, that's always a risky move, right? And um I I personally only ever recommend that if the if the page is way underperforming or if the website is way underperforming and you kind of have nothing else to lose, um at that point it's like sure, go for it. But anytime you're doing um URL redirects, all of those back links that have gone to those URLs, all of those internal links, etc. Even if you successfully put that redirect in place, there's only going to be some percentage of link equity, if you will, pass through. Um, who knows what that full percentage is, but you're just adding an extra step in that process for the crawler to really understand it. So, in the short run, it's it absolutely impacts the the business and business results. In the long run, uh 6 to 12 months, it'll probably level out. Um but it's still a risk. And of course, 12 months down the line, assuming you did it well, there's redirects in place, it's probably a blip on the radar. So, that's the types of conversations that I have with with um folks when when they're trying to analyze is this business move in their mind worth the the um SEO? Yeah, exactly. Um, AI is obviously hot stuff and I think most companies have been rewarded when they go full AI, when they mention AI on earnings calls, etc. They see a blip up in their stock price or um, you know, in their their next funding round, etc. Um, so there's a lot of uh economic momentum behind going allin quoteunquote allin on AI and one of the most public things you can do is change your website to go to be from.com toai. So I I think um executives view this as a um as a PR gain as a uh as a marketing gain. Um but the short-term reality is that can really be an an SEO hit. Yeah. Oh, yeah. I mean, so, so I'm unusual on this show compared to like other marketing shows because I try to take a more realistic view of uh the AI hype cycle that we are in. And this is partly because I was really early in blockchain hype cycle. Me and my friends, we made the very first video game in crypto. That was in Yeah, it was it was and I I was running the biggest blockchain meetup in the world in 2017 during the ICO boom, during the initial coin offering boom. So I was there in 2018 when every company needed a blockchain strategy and they they mentioned it on earning earnings calls and there you see their stock price tick up like it's exactly the same and I'm like and I'm like I've seen this before and and so um and I've also like I have companies and we have wasted a lot of time trying to automate things that didn't need to be automated. that actually automating them got before having the complete processes internally in place before automating made us get worse results Yeah. So, so um that you know that's another thing. It's like you're transitioning from a.com to aai. You might not even care about having theai in a couple of years and actually the com was better for brand and brand is the most important. That is what's going to carry you through especially especially in two years when so many more companies are using AI. Are you out of your mind to like give up to change this brand asset? Oh, maybe we could we could change it back. I mean I guess you could change it back with 301 redirects and but then but like maybe I mean maybe that's a decent argument against what I'm saying is like they could change it back to a com after changing it to A.A.I. You're still building links and you're calling yourself brand AI in the messaging. Yeah. I mean, I I view it as uh look, if if you have all the money and resources in the world, like sure, go for it. Why not? But the the economic reality of most businesses and most business owners, even you know, enterprise to small business, if you were to tell them, hey, this is a hundred,000 or a million dollar uh uh business decision, most of them will not make that decision. Um it's just not it's not worth it at the at the end of the day. So, I I think being able to speak in the same terms that executives care about, money, uh that is a a really good way to get them on board and influence them. What are the most important things to screen for when you hire SEOs? Um, number one, communication, but I'm not going to uh uh harp on that. We talked about that. Number two I would say is executive presence. Does that person have the energy? Yeah. Right. Um how do they make you feel when you leave that call? Is it is it kind of drained or is it excited and motivated to to work with them? Um I think that's a really underrated one. Um, and then last but not least, uh, I always ask folks a a litany of say you get a new website, walk me through your process for auditing that website and identifying what your strategy would be. And hearing people go through or not go through that process well is a really good indicator of a, does this person understand SEO? B, does this person understand communication? C, does this person understand what details matter, what details don't? So, the the energy, right? So, that's like the question I use to frame the rest of the interview. Um, and uh usually by the end of that very first first question, I have an idea of is this a good fit or is it not? if if you're starting Travis, if you're starting a new website for a SAS, what are the how do you do how do you start doing SEO for it? Yeah. So, um f first thing first, I would want access to any of the data inputs that that I can get. So, um Adobe, Google, uh whatever that is. and then um dig deep in the data to see what I uh to to see what is happening with that with the performance of of that website. From there, I would want the ability to go through discovery with that client to understand what products matter more than others. Um what services matter for more than others. that can really help frame recommendations and strategy. At that point, um I am going to do a technical analysis to really understand um how is this site uh how is this site's crawability? How is it showing up within search engines or or LLM etc. um or or not showing up? Uh and then uh that combined with the data that we already have access to in terms of rankings, traffic, um year-over-year analysis, etc., we can really start to build a a great content strategy around that, a great technical SEO strategy, um and then a great DPR strategy from from that. Um depending on the audience, I'm going to wrap that up in a uh powerful presentation. if it's more to executives or people who don't necessarily understand SEO and then link out to um to an SEO workbook that you know clearly explains what needs to change and all of that. Um if it's a more technical audience, I'm going to go a little bit more on the workbook side, less on the presentation side. What if it's what if it's your own SAS? You you you vibecoded a SAS and you want to do SEO for it? Yeah. How do you start? Yeah, you can uh I go through that the same half of that process. I think you can probably avoid the presentation to yourself. Um but I think it is still valuable to summarize all of that information into um some some type of workbook. Um I would also use AI and I I have used AI to um help speed up some of those some of those steps along the way. Right? So AI is really great at understanding semantic relationships. Um it's getting better at data analysis. It's it's not hallucinating as much as long as you have uh numbers in each cell. If you don't have a number in a cell, it'll make a number up. I've learned that. Um so always have a number even if that number is zero uh in a cell. Um so yeah, using AI to re really help group those uh that that data together. Um, and then use AI to uh if you have an MCP attached to AHFS or whatever your tool of choice is. Um, that can uh really help on the content strategy side of things too. Are you able to talk about I'm I'm sure you're like these all these NDAs, but are you able to talk about any like content wins on things that like content initiatives that led to like huge SEO wins and what can be learned from that or or or if you can't say the company is just you can make it like try to keep it anonymous I guess though it might be hard. Um yeah, I can absolutely talk about one that that was uh was approved. I spoke about it at Mozcon so on so forth. So this was in Microsoft, this was for M Microsoft's GitHub. Um, and GitHub has always kind of been known as the foundation of the developer community. Uh, and it's a really complicated um, messy website because of all the userenerated content that that gets put into it. but also GitHub sells its own services, has its own pricing plans, has its own blog information, press releases, etc. Um, so just large complicated website and um early on in our partnership with uh and and this is Brain Labs. Early on in Brain Lab's partnership with GitHub, um they identified how can we basically streamline content on the website to not only be easier for users to navigate and understand, but for search engines to navigate and understand. So there was a lot of competing blog content against marketing content. um certain keywords where you would want, you know, a a pricing page or signup page to show up, a blog was actually showing up. So really went through this huge cannibalization project to regroup um all of these various types of of pages, recategorize all these pages. Um this was right around the time AI was starting to show up in a lot of searches. um adding new categories like AI, identifying what content could be adapted for that verse not um and uh reworking the entire blog navigation. All that to say that led to a 400% increase in uh in um traffic for for GitHub. uh and of of course GitHub now is uh a a favorite in the uh AI developer and AI marketing space be because of how crucial it is for housing repositories of of code and design systems and all of that stuff. Yeah. When I when I started at Densu with Yas with our mutual friend Yas, that was like the first thing that I started doing, which was just keyword so much keyword cannibalization cuz when you're a big site, that's when that's where it's like so important to pay attention to that. That's like I think that's a misconception that a lot of newer SEOs have is that they're like I need to like they have like a a small client or something. They're like I need to pay I need to really worry about keyword cannibalization. But it's like it's when you have when you have hundreds of pages that are ranking or thousands of pages, that's when now you really need to cuz like the wrong page will will show up for a keyword and that's going to hurt you 100%. And when you look at it internationally, you start adding in various language or regional variations, it's even messier. So yeah, plus plus one to that. Yeah. How do you how do you prevent 90 SEOs from getting in the way of each other? That's I mean, God, must be mayhem sometimes, you know? It's um I I would I would have never described it as as mayhem. I I think it can definitely get competitive at times. And so for for me, I always wanted to make sure that it was friendly competition if it if it was competitive. and really build a culture where everyone is invested in everyone else's growth and no one is hoarding knowledge or information or way of doing things um be because that hinders everyone's ability to grow and succeed. Um, so, uh, I'm I might give flack for this, but I I do believe when you have a team that large, hierarchy is important. And being able to understand who you go to for what decision, how you relay information across the team and to your manager, what information goes to your manager verse goes to so on so forth. So being able to understand those decision rights across the team and the information flows across the team and make that as crystal clear as possible. That's how you avoid most mayhem. Uh be because then people know if this happens I need to go communicate that to this person, right? Um that also eliminates a lot of the question marks around roles and responsibilities because when you say this is your decision to make it becomes less about here's the work I have to do but the outcomes and decisions that I own. Uh so you really kind of boost the the level of ownership in uh in that method as well. You were so you had a bunch of CRO as well. Mhm. What are what are some of the biggest CRO wins that you saw? That's like um I mean I've personally seen situations where I will have a poorly converting page. I will completely redo it and that will lead to I don't know like a 10,000% increase in sales like of 100 like it it just the most mind-boggling numbers when you something that I something that I actually learned um a couple years ago is really just like a lot of people get enough traffic. Some people don't for sure, but a lot of people do. And it's just that their pages are terrible and they don't they don't know how to write copy that is going to convert people. And and then and then you spend so much more time trying to get more traffic, which is good, get more traffic, but you're still first of all, you have more pogo sticking because people are coming to your pages and they're they're you're not speaking to them and they're bouncing. they're leaving and then it's just the potential to make the most of that and so yeah it's CRO is so so so important having Yeah. Okay. So I'm I'm curious. Yeah. I just plus one to your your comments. I think I think CRO is one of the most underinvested digital marketing channels across the board for any company. Um, so if you get one thing from this podcast, please go invest more in CRO. Um, to your point, most CRO out there are just trying to make incremental gains. They change the color of this button or the word on this button. That's not what wins. That's not what works. uh my team always took an approach where how can we re reinvision the entire funnel that that person enters into the website. You know considers your product and then and then ultimately converts and that is where you see huge gains. So, for a um a a large um a a a large cell phone plan provider, uh we saw a 40% improvement in online sales from totally revamping their entire purchase process. Um, and the other thing to know is this particular provider caters to elderly folks. And so that required a very different lens of how are we optimizing for this versus um, you know, a younger audience who's maybe used to clicking through multiple pages or seeing several product variations, etc. We need to make this as simple as possible. Blow up the text, make the buttons bigger, all of that stuff. and that ultimately led to a 40% gain which was a lot of money for um this this client. What are some of the most common uh common CRO mistakes that you see? Um the first one being not partnering crossf functionally with teams like SEO. Um there's a lot of CRO strategies out there that can kill SEO and the the uh goal of CRO should always be what is the net what is the net sale gain you know not just uh what is the conversion rate gain on this particular page but like will this strategy take a hit to discoverability to where sure even if I see a 20% CRO gain I'm seeing a decline in discoverability that means net conversions are down so working crossf functionally is really important. Um the other thing I would the the other big mistake I would say is thinking too small. Uh I you know I I think a lot of CRO are so focused on um those incremental wins as opposed to how can you totally revamp the process and experience to be better and that's a lot more work. the um you know development cycles for that are probably 3 to 4 weeks as opposed to a few days but the the wins on that are 10x what you'll see on the on the incremental version. Um, and then last but not least I would say is not aligning on company specific standards around design systems, branding, copy and um that really bogs down those approvals and and that that process. Um, when it comes to CRO, boosting velocity, testing velocity is is one of the best things you can do. Uh, so building those processes and systems to make sure everyone is aligned. That's how you boost that that testing velocity over time. How much have you seen poor design get in the way of SEO? oh, I mean, pretty often. Uh, I mean, I'm talking popups. I'm talking uh you you know modals that maybe convert well but have no SEO value or or images that aren't that aren't clear. Or or or a page that's confusing. Yep. Yep. 100%. One of the things that drives me nuts and this I think shows the cross functionality um across multiple teams. Say you have a paid ad that is going for um the keyword woman doctor, right? And then someone lands on that page and there's no image of a woman doctor on that page. It's like, you know, an image of maybe the the a male doctor like a family or uh and that is a CRO failure. It's a paid strategy alignment failure. It's an SEO failure. uh because you're missing the ability to have, you know, image alt text on that on that image. So, um that kind of stuff happens all the time. And the moment I I uh now that I've mentioned that, I bet all of you are going to realize this happens in e-commerce. Someone search for blue shoes and all a sudden they land on a red shoe page. Um happens in cars all the time. It happens in B2B SAS. Someone's cir searching for a specific industry and they land on a page not specific to that industry. Um, so yeah, that's uh now that I've planted that seed, I'm sure it'll drive you nuts just in your experience on the internet. So I'm I'm funding um this new company where our entire growth strategy is SEO. It's a vibecoded SAS. I talk about this all the time on the show. The idea is we go into an industry that one people in the industry don't want to vibe code their own SAS and two has poor SEO so we can dominate just makes it really easy. Uh and like a lot of people are like why don't you make why don't you make a SAS in SEO and I'm like that's stupid. I don't want to I mean I'm a great saturated it's so saturated. Yeah. Yeah. Actually, the first time I had uh Ran Fishkin on this show and I I asked him like, "Would you start Moz again?" And he's like, and he's like, "No." He's like, "I don't like crowded spaces." And I'm like, "Yeah, I I feel you." Um, and so the operator for this company who I've been training, he's he loves design and he made these like beautiful images for our bottom of funnel SEO landing page or the new ones that we're putting up. And it broke my heart, but I had to tell you like I had to tell him like you need to make these so much more simple because they're beautiful, but people are going to have to think too much. And I cannot stress enough just how much anybody doesn't want to think. They they need to be able to look at this image. It needs to be clear as a day what this product does without them having to think. And% there's this uh phrase that I really like. It's clarity beats cleverness. Clarity beats cleverness. And and so we had to redo like all the images and there's they're so much better. Um I want to ask you about uh about like measurement. Uh so what metrics matter internally on such a big SEO team? Do Yeah. Just to make sure I'm understanding. Do you mean for clients or for like how did I measure success as Yeah. How did you measure how did you measure success? Yeah. So um keep in mind I was agency side. So uh the the measurement of our success was revenue growth and retention. Um and uh the other measure of success is every quarter there was a team satisfaction survey and a client satisfaction survey that went out. It was really important to me to have those numbers be be as high as they they possibly could. It was on a scale of of 1 to 10. We always aimed for eight and above. Um some quarters nailed it. Other quarters were more more difficult, you know. Um those were the I'm a big fan of not over complicating KPIs. I think when you have too many KPIs, it it really dilutes performance and success. Um, so those were the KPIs, revenue, retention, growth, client satisfaction, team satisfaction. What processes? So now, yeah, now now I I I want to ask you about the processes. So like, yeah, what what processes and systems did you did you build out? Like this is so important for what you were doing with so many SEOs. Um, what are some and and I have people listen to this show who also have large agencies. Yeah. Yeah. What are what are like some huge takeaways that they can implement? Um I I want to double click on the hiring process and the onboarding process. Those alone will save you 70 80% of the headache later on. Uh and you're setting that person up for success. So like spend an un uh more time on that than you probably want to, more time on that than you think you need. Um beyond that, really building out those decision rights and information flows ac across the team. So most people are probably familiar with a racy model. Um being able to build a racy model across Can you explain that? Yeah. So uh a racy model stands for identifying for each initiative or each project um so on so forth. It can be as high level or um niche as you want. uh you identify who's responsible, the R, who's accountable, the A, who's consulted, the C, and informed the I. And when you do that line by line, client by client, initiative by initiative, it really becomes clear who owns what, right? And who is who is accountable for that success, who's responsible and supporting that, who's consulted, and information needs to flow to that person. Um so uh going through that that gets you probably 85% of the way there. Um from there it becomes uh having standardized process for knowledge and um information storage. So I am ashamed to say this but my first two years at Brain Labs there was no project management tool and I fought tooth and nail to get a project management tool integrated into the team because all of my sub teams were operating differently and it was it was really really tough if someone was randomly out sick or something happened. um it was really difficult for someone else on a different team to pick up where they were and and keep running with that ball. So aligning on what is the common project management process and information um uh gathering and and knowledge storage process that we have across the entire team. What platform did you use? We used Monday to begin with um and then shifted toward notion uh by the by the time I left. Wow. Um yeah, I won't go into that but um that was not a decision I made. Um what I will say though is uh having a platform and investing in that platform is one of the most important things that any any team can can do. So and again that's like the not sexy part of the job that is so important and saves you so much headache later on down down the line. Um, so yeah, I invest in those things. You get 90 95% of the way there. And then I I think that last incremental part is, you know, identifying which projects are worth automating, which ones are not. You mentioned earlier it's hard to automate a process um that's not written down or like understood um without the technology. Investing in just writing down processes. That's uh a lot of the work that I do now. I own Day Nova uh which is an AI change management uh company and that is a lot of the work that we that we do is like helping companies identify what are your processes. Let's write down those processes before you ever even touch AI tools. Uh and that will help them navigate this this change management into the world of AI integration. I had um one of my one of my listeners was got into um automation and we spoke like uh a year or like it was like a year and a half later and I'm like all right so you've been you've been you're so deep in AI and AI tools now and you're doing automation for companies and I'm like what's the biggest takeaway you have so far and he's like oh it's crazy he's like most companies don't actually need it. I'm like, "What?" I'm like, "What do you mean?" He's he's like he's like, "Most companies don't know what should be automated or or the they don't have the processes to even automate. They're just like we want to do this and they don't know know how to do it in the first place." Y and it's like you should actually learn how to do it in the first place. Exactly. Yeah, dude. I made an entire episode actually about how I think like completely vibecoded sites where people just put up SEO sites without even thinking about it actually is making it easier for other SEOs who don't do that because what happens is the AI makes the site. You give it some keywords. The AI makes the site all of the content and you're you're like not in the way of the AI at all. So, it's just doing everything and it as a result it's really bad. It's not actually like speaking to what the searcher will want. Uh, it it might even have like maybe you're doing like the simple things like removing m dashes and stuff, but even when you want to make changes, you are still bought in to the initial content structure that the AI came up with, you are editing from where what the AI anchored you in. Totally. And that might be really terrible and you need to think about it yourself from the from the ground up because like you know there's this concept of anchoring and ne negotiation which is like you give a low price and now you're arguing up from this low price. You're the first to give the the the price now you're arguing up from the low price. Well, the AI just gave you your content structure and it's terrible and you're spending your time trying to fix a terrible content structure when you should have just thought of a good one from the start. 100%. Yeah. I mean, and that's like I I think AI can absolutely help in in a lot of companies, but you you have to have those systems and those processes in place first before it's ever able to to help. Um I would think of it almost like uh the the last mile tool. Um there's a term in transportation where it's like the scooters are like the the last mile transportation from the bus stop to the concert venue or whatever, right? Um the AI is that same thing. It's the last mile tool. Um but you have to have that that process ironed out and and that's what I'm that's what I'm working on and doing today and uh it's exciting. I want to ask you about that in a couple moments. Have you ever had to tell a major client that they were completely wrong? And and how do you what's the best way? Oh my gosh. All the time. What's the best way to do it? And what like Yeah. What's the best way to do it? What advice do you have for people who have to do that? Uh data really helps. Um you know, it's it's hard to dispute data. So having having that data uh in your back pocket is really important. And then also when you are pushing back even if you don't have the data right there based on your experience what percentage of time did this work right like giving numbers really anchors is a is a good word for this anchors the conversation in a way to where um it becomes less personal around hey this is a bad idea and more about you can make this decision but it's going to have this impact this percentage of traffic or whatever right um the The other thing I would say is this is also where relationships come in. If you are friends with that person and you know what they're up to this weekend, you know they have some some kids, how old their kids are, the names of their kids, becomes a lot easier to be more of a um an adviser to them and and less of a vendor. A vendor saying don't do this and an adviser saying look I want to see you be successful in your role. I want you to impress your boss in your company based on my experience. This is what I would do. Um, yeah, I those two things will go a really long way in in telling any client. No, that's really good advice saying the framing it from their perspective in terms of get helping them get what they want. Yes, exactly. Yeah. What what separates websites that plateau from ones that compound traffic for years? I if I were to think of what word, I would say investment. Um but that doesn't necessarily mean financial investment. It just means um investment in making that website better over time. I think a lot of businesses think we build a website and don't get me wrong that is typically a ton of work and most people are exhausted by the time that website gets published. That's really just when the race is starting. Like that was your that was your warm-up to the marathon. Uh and once that website is published, that's when the marathon begins. And you have to keep investing in SEO strategies, in content, in CRO strategies. um that is how you take a website um uh to new new heights and and uh it it no longer plateaus. You know what I would would say for this question? I would say avoiding lazy thinking because like um so a trend now that you're seeing is companies are throwing up like hundreds or thousands of best x fory listicles on their sites in order to gain LLMs. And what's happening is this will work for a short amount of time and then either the subfolder gets hit or the entire site gets hit and you see these crazy spikes down where ultimately the sites end up with less traffic organic traffic than they started with. And this trend is called mount AI. And this is just it's like a lazy it's a lazy way of thinking because these articles are AI gen they're completely AI generated. A lot of them are garbage and it's it's like how can we get it? You you do want to be thinking about like getting the most bang for uh for the least bucks. But like at the same time you need to think about like the long-term impact that something will have. And also, is what you're doing the type of thing that throws off clear patterns that Google can detect? Um, yeah, that there's a there's a saying in in finance, uh, pigs get fat, hogs get slaughtered. And I I think it's the same exact thing, right? Like if you if you make smart investments that are helping your entire marketing strategy, your brand strategy, those are going to get your business fat, but it's going to take a long time. If you try to cut corners, go for those quick wins, you're gonna get The best shortcut is Oh, yeah. Actually, so this was Yeah. The best shortcut is a long cut. And I got this from um from uh Jay Pensky. Yeah. From uh from Penske Media Corporation and I saw him speak at the Forbes Iconoclass Summit and and he talked about growing PMC and which I think is now like in some crazy lawsuit or something. Um but but he I mean like PMC is huge and and actually uh Glenn Alop who's now at Hrefs and who at detail.com he made this like breakthrough study that like 16 corporations get the most clicks on Google um like and and PMC was one of them. So PMBC dominated with SEO and he he said like we thought about the types of like he's like I'm creating generational assets and I am thinking about the the types of the decisions that I am making will affect a company that I can give to children or that will be around for way longer than I'm than I'm around. Wow. That's the decision-m that he's doing. And I like I personally agree with that a lot. I think it's so much easier when you have like a long I mean look at what I've done with this podcast. Like I've done it every day for 3 years. I've made my social videos every day for 3 years. And when you just have a long-term mindset and you're like, "Yeah, maybe I can't figure it out in this first week or month." But I know that in years it's going to compound and be insane if I just keep doing this. Like it is harder for when you have clients though because you don't want to tell the clients want the quick wins and that's like the that's the balancing game. It's a balance. It's a balance. But I love that idea of like creating generational uh assets. What what SEO tactics still work incredibly well that people overlook? Uh internal linking uh is a is a big one. Um main main menu navigation taxonomy any of that kind of stuff is a is a big one. Um, ooh. Something I've really been leaning into is every company out there needs to make sure their products and services have the five W's. The who, what, when, where, why. And if you can articulate that information across your products and services, well, you are setting yourself up to be incredibly successful in AI search, which is becoming far more personalized. is people are, you know, having these crazy long query strings. Um, that uh that that's a big one right now. And just doing that alone, you can come up with enough content strategy to keep you and any AI agent you have busy for a decade probably. Um, and then last but not least, I would say at least on large websites, technical SEO continues to be underinvested. Um and uh yeah I I think focusing on JavaScript rendering is important. Focusing on how content behind um certain interactivities so say like accordians or um pop-ups or any of that is um rendered and uh uh read and understood. That is incredibly important to invest time and energy in. Yeah. especially with more vibecoded sites that can't be crawled. Um, yeah. Uh, can you talk more about this AI search strategy and and like I agree with completely with what you're saying, but I think some people might not understand. Yeah. So, the way that I think about AI SEO is that is an umbrella that uh all of the niche types of SEO, website SEO, um YouTube SEO, Amazon SEO, all of that kind of bleeds and and ladders up into AI SEO as this umbrella because to win AI search, you have to win across all those platforms. It's no longer just uh enough to invest in your website. you have to invest in the entire ecosystem in order to win well. Um, and when when I say AI search strategies, uh, I mean how do you show up within AI overviews? How do you show up within Google's AI mode? How do you show up within chat GPT? And, um, what we know is that is multimodal. It is, uh, it is no longer relying on just your website content. it is relying on all of these various platforms for information. Reddit is a big one too. Um, so thinking about these strategies, you I would I would use this analogy called source SEO where your website is the reservoir of initial water, the reservoir of initial information. That's where your 5Ws are going to be. That's where good technical SEO is going to allow any of these search engines to crawl the information. Then you have the rivers or the streams that come from that reservoir. Think of that as all the third party platforms. That's YouTube, that's um Tik Tok, that's Reddit. Those funnel into a water treatment plant. And the water treatment plant is AI search because it's determining which information based on the intent of that searcher should I show? Should I show Reddit reviews or should I show the source information from the website? Right? Or a mix of of all of that and then the user is the one turning on the faucet to drink the the the water, right? So, um, understanding it in that way shows that SEO is no longer just about the website. Don't get me wrong, it's a reservoir. That's where water comes from. That's important, but it's about um nurturing that that water and building those streams uh to that water treatment plan. How much do you think that has changed from how SEO just should have been done forever? Cuz I I I also feel like good SEO has always been also good reputation management. Mhm. Yeah, I I agree with that. I would say it is I think table stakes have changed. Um so in the in the long run, website SEO was table stakes. Now today, uh website SEO is table stakes, YouTube SEO is table stakes, digital PR is table stakes. Like having good marketing is table stakes to perform well in AI search. Um, and you can prioritize that across audiences and industries that matter, you know, more than others. Um, but you in order to perform really well in AI search, you have to do all of those things well. Um, and and I think that's the difference is most SEOs 10 years ago were not doing YouTube, we're not focused on Amazon strategy, we're not focused on Reddit, you know, that's that's how it's changed. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. How has um how has AI changed the way that like very large SEO teams operate? I think a lot of teams are still figuring this out and it's actually making stuff more messy and confusing for a lot of them. Those productivity gains that we keep hearing about haven't totally been realized by most teams today. And in fact, it's more work uh to learn this new tool, figure out its capabilities, review its outputs, realize, oh, I should have incorporated that in my initial process or prompt to begin with, right? Like that cycle is really uh bloated and messy right now. So, in the short run, I I don't think there's been much um much productivity gains. uh and it's it's actually complicating a lot of work in a lot of teams um in the long run being able to write down let me say this AI scales chaos so focusing on eliminating the chaos to begin with with those process and those symptoms that's where that time and energy should be spent today so then as the AI gets better gets better reasoning gets better connectors, etc. It's a lot easier to plug in because you've eliminated the chaos in your own process and systems. It'll be a lot easier to plug in AI. Is it similar to what your company does? Yeah, that's exactly what we what we do. And what was a what was what's the the site for your company? Uh I the site is actually going live tomorrow, but it is uh it's called Day Nova AI. Cool. Yeah. Yeah, I mean this podcast will be out um tomorrow. Um okay, this is actually a very fun question. What's the biggest Maybe I may maybe this is one that you definitely won't be able to answer, but I'm going to ask you anyway. What's the biggest SEO disaster that you've seen internally? you learn more from disasters than you do arguably from successes. Yeah, I I agree. Okay, this is reaching back pretty far in in my career, but the um the biggest disaster was um a client did a brand brand change and we knew that the brand change was happening, etc. Uh but they totally switched their website to a new to a new domain without telling us. Uh so like hop on a call, they're like, "Oh, just wanted to let you know this website went live." And we're like, "What?" like that's like three months prior to what it was in in the road map. They're like, "Oh yeah, my developer said they could just, you know, get this domain live, no, no problem, and uh port over all the content." By that point, um the site was indexed in Google. It was a copy of all of the pages and the old branding from uh you know, from the um old old website that was also still live on this old domain. So you had a a cannibalization issue. Um you had duplicate content issues. You had um crossbranding issues. Uh it was a a mess. And it it we were able to add a no like a um no index and then a um uh no follow. No uh you were changing the robots.txt. Yeah. Robots.txt directive. Um anyway, yeah, we were able to add those elements and like get that new domain to drop while the site build was finalized, but um it that impacted rankings for many many many months, like six to seven months. Um and the client almost ended up going bankrupt in that time cuz the website was like their main lead driver. Um and it was, you know, there were outside investors. is it got really messy. Like there were investor meetings about this and um the CEO almost got uh f like axed through the process. Like it was a very very messy experience. I have three three more questions. Okay. What what advice would you give someone trying to become a top 1% SEO? Read more. Yeah. your your best SEO skills are uh going to come from applying other knowledge, business knowledge, industry knowledge, um to the realm of SEO than actually just cranking out more of the same old SEO. You have any books that you re you would recommend? Oo, a lot of them. Um Oh, yeah. Yeah. I mean, uh The Lean Startup is one of my favorite books. That's a good OG. Radical Cander is a great book. Anything by Adam Grant, I strongly recommend. Harvard Business Review also has really really great um articles, but they also create books that are like um snippets of articles or like uh certain articles. So yeah, that that would be my my recommendation. Yeah, I love that advice. actually um uh Will Reynolds from Seir Interactive was uh he was on this show um I think it was a week or two ago and he he said the same thing. We had the same we had the same conversation. Yeah, he's awesome. What's the highest leverage SEO activity per hour worked? You mean activity, right? Yeah. the highest leverage SEO activity per hour worked. I mean, it has to be technical SEO when I Yeah, it has to be because it just it the reach on that kind of work is so vast. Um or linkable assets, but yeah, technical SEO. Yeah. Yeah, I could also see linkable assets for sure. Yeah, but technical SEO, I mean, you make one little change and it affects everything. Yeah, you're right. Uh, all right. Last question. And thank you again, Travis. Um, my last question is, what's one SEO lesson that took you years to learn? being able being great at SEO is less about the technical work and more about influencing people to support your work. when when you get developers on board, when you get executives to sign a check to expand content strategy or DPR strategy, that's far more impactful than me spending my time pounding out another blog, right? So, um finding a way to communicate your work uh to drive influence across an organization, that is the most impactful thing that uh that an SEO can do. Ravis Talent, thank you for coming on the show. Thank you. This was a great convo. Yeah, this was fun. Uh, where should everybody find you? Uh, I spend too much time on LinkedIn. Please go uh find me on LinkedIn. I also just recently launched a an LGBTQ plus and ally AI group called Out in Aai on LinkedIn. Um, please go follow that that group as well. Cool. Thank you, Travis. Thank you. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you to Yoss. Yoss. Um, yeah, Yoss was a former head of SEO at Omnicom. He's been on the show several times and he's like, "You got to talk to Travis. Travis is great." And after talking to you for 90 minutes, I couldn't agree more. You are great. So, would love that. Would love to come back. I hope I hope you will. Um, for sure. Anything that any ideas if you ever want to do like, you know, this comes out every day, so I'm constantly putting out as much content as I can, thinking content things. If there's any like ideas just where you want to come and talk about it for like 15 to 30 minutes, those episodes are great too. The like super short ones where it's like I have this one concept that I just really want to unpack. Like you're always welcome to come back on. Love that. Yeah. Yeah. Uh all right. This is episode 145 of the Edward Show. 145 days in a row doing this podcast. If you watch us on YouTube, thank you so much for watching. If you listened on Spotify or Apple Podcasts, thank you so much for listening and I will talk to you again tomorrow.