The Age Of The 40-Year-Old Solo Founder Is Here

You need to have a certain amount of expertise to know what to do with this boundless intelligence that's imbued in the model. And I think this is where folks with experience, folks that have spent, you know, decade plus in this industry, they know how to create something like this because they can leverage the model's underlying capability to create something that's just world-class. So many businesses, they have a great product, they have a great service, but there's just so much sort of unmet opportunity for these business owners, for these founders. And I'm really just here to make it easier for them to tap into it. Welcome back to another episode of The Light Cone. Today, we're joined by Bryant Chou, co-founder and CTO of Webflow, which created 1% of all websites live today. Bryant is back in the current YC batch with a brand-new startup called Ploy, which is taking the work he did on Webflow to the next level. Bryant, welcome to The Light Cone. Thanks for having me. So, what is Ploy? We're looking at it right now. Kind of looks like uh a lot of the other things you might use to uh vibe code, but it's actually way more awesome than that. It is a website platform. You can build really incredible bespoke, award-winning websites with Ploy. But, it doesn't just stop there. The premise is is that your website website has all this traffic, it has all this data, and what we're doing is we're building entire marketing platform to help you run your business, to help you run your ads, help you find your customers, help you make your website copy, but then also, most importantly, help you get found by ChatGPT, help you get found by Perplexity and Claude, so that businesses can run their marketing on autopilot. Kind of sounds like hiring the perfect CMO who also is a designer and who can code. That's actually kind of my background. So like I started as a CTO of Webflow, but then I also led our marketing teams. I also started our sales teams. So I'm just taking all that knowledge and I'm baking it into Play. Okay, so that sounds like founder market fit a triple unicorn making the AI triple unicorn for everyone in the world like the other 98% of websites could really use this. That's right. So what you're seeing is that it's sure like a pipe coding sort of UI UX, but you're also getting stuff out of the box that you wouldn't normally get. So you get all of these sort of integrations, but then most importantly you get all this traffic. So what I actually did was just to show off Play's web design skills. I loaded your old startup website. Yeah, so this is [laughter] mine. This is Postorius does simple blogs by email. You can see the little the Gmail buttons and things like that. What year did you build this site, Gary? 2008. So you know, if it looks dated it is. So we dropped it into Play and we essentially said, "Hey, go and recreate this website in Play." And this is what it created. Oh my god. Wow, it's gorgeous. So this is not 2008 Postorius. It is truly 2026 Postorius. Be careful because now that you've created I might have to actually write a million lines of code and make it real again. This is definitely a Google VO video and all these sort of prompts and sort of knowledge about how to create these type of videos are embedded into Play. Yeah, I mean once you're in the land of doing image gen and video gen, there's just a lot you have to do around curation and proper prompting. It's kind of like a dark art actually. So being able to start off with the thousand examples that you've already pulled together. I mean that's context in action. Jared, I also got yours coming up. We also took Screed. We went back in the way back machine. Screed from 2007. YouTube for documents. YouTube for documents. I remember fiddling with the CSS to try to make that look right. How did you even host this back in the day? This is before AWS. This is on a physical server. Originally physically in my dorm room closet, which is how I learned that servers are loud. So this is what Floyd redesigned it to. Ooh. Wow. Bring it to 2026. And this is basically like you basically just gave it the old website and like told it to go with maybe like a short prompt and then just like went and just like brought it up to 2026, right? That's right. So it actually went to the Wayback Machine's URL, understood the contents, and then understood the context of your business, and then it was like, "Oh, cool. We're bringing this business back. Let's go and redesign it for the modern era." So yeah, it's interesting cuz it's not merely web design. It's actually understanding memory, reasoning, uh, really like a marketing company brain. That's right. That's right. And asset generation. Like I remember like back in the day to like make images like this, you need to hire like a team of designers and it was so slow and expensive. And like animations like what you did for Gary's site, that was like impossible. Yeah, impossible. Yeah. Like unaffordable for any startup. Yeah. Oh man, this is Harj's Automatics [laughter] for 2007. Yeah, automatics is software for small businesses to sell online, mostly managing their eBay auctions. And this is what we redesigned it to. better. Yeah. So it's able to like build these sort of like product mocks of of your product. Okay. It can also develop your actual website, too. It It can do everything a model can do. I mean, this is actually pretty interesting. That dashboard is the kind of [clears throat] That's the basically the kind of software we build. I didn't actually think we had that on the usual website, but that top listings and channel map, it's interesting that it Yeah, the controls. Yeah, this is all like really really quite intelligent. Yeah, it's really working backwards from what the who the customer is, what do they want, what are the jobs to be done? It's kind of impressive. I kind of understand more what Octomatic does with this website. Yeah, no, that's what I mean. It's better. It's better [laughter] than what we had. I had no idea what it was. I didn't understand what it does. I had no idea what it was. Yeah. Well, it's new I I I think it's actually a deep point. Like it's not just prettier, which obviously it is. Like the obviously like the visual design is much better. But actually the content is better, too. And we always hear hear hear about like AI slop, but like if it was AI slop, that wouldn't have worked. Diana, remember this one? Oh man, we had such a hard time trying to make our website because we had very complex tech building API for AR. This is back in 2017 for phones. We kind of actually hired a designer to make some of these assets, which took a while to took like a good Jared was my group partner. Maybe it took like, I don't know, 2 months to get this. This happened to be one of the favorite websites that ploy created because it's like got all these really cool screenshots and stuff. And I think this was just three or four prompts. So, it actually created this video. That's so cool. It isn't just a random video. It's actually a video of AR. Like this is basically like the vision of actual reality, right, Diana? [laughter] It's yeah. Being able to have avatars and things just in in your real world, but totally programmatic very easily. I think now I understand what my company does, too. Yeah, I think that's one of the biggest things about ploy is that, you know, we're we've got about like 12% of the YC batch using ploy. And one of the biggest pieces of feedback is just like, "Wow, I'm actually able to tell my story a lot more coherently and concisely." And then that's actually the most important part of your website. This actually used to be a big part of office hours way back in the day. We sort of stopped doing it, but the early ones used to be like, "Hey, like here's your website. Like we'll walk people through explaining what it does." Yeah, Webflow had a big part in democratizing web development and web design. And the way I've always thought about ploy in the beginning is I want to democratize marketing and demystify growth. A lot of incredible founders in YC, they've built these incredible products. They're starting to get a sense for how to talk about it, but then there's just like these somewhat like wrote and arduous SEO marketing things that they should be doing, but it's just like, "Oh man, do I need to go and hire someone for it?" And this is really what I'm trying to bring to YC and to all the founders that are out there. I mean, this is a big deal. I mean, it does feel like we're entering this moment where um you know, there's sort of the a doomer AI scenario where people think like, "Oh, there's not going to be jobs." One of the thoughts I've been having lately is like, "Why can't the person who they were at some company, someone is trying to cost cut here, and then they're like, 'Okay, we have to let go all these people.'" Like some of them actually could do the whole thing. They they're as good as the founders, and those are the people who actually should just go and do it. But especially if you're um a little bit older, like you know, it's actually kind of hard to fill in your brain with like, you know, you might not be like Bryant, like a that you know, triple threat, right? [laughter] Like you're like the Bo Jackson Oh, man. Yeah, sorry. Now that's a very My muscles aren't as big. I mean, this is actually one of the great equalizers. Like the founders in the past who uh did it the best, I mean, they sort of had to be super deep in all of these different ways. Uh and then now we're entering this other moment. How often is it that we meet founders who are incredibly great technologists, but when when it comes to actually getting people to use their product, like they actually sometimes really struggle. Like I think um human beings uh to me resemble sort of uh we I we started playing Dungeons and Dragons with my sons. Mhm. And so, you know, when you have to do like the reroll, like everyone has different hit points and different characteristics. You know, some people are mages, some people are barbarians, you you there's like a lot of stuff going on. I think that that sort of um extends to capability of founders. Interestingly, like we're sort of entering this other moment where because ploy exists, you know, you might have someone who's like 200 IQ, you know, nearly non-verbal like codexes, they're able to make just some sort of hardware software that literally no one else could. But in the past, like if you're that, you know, OP in one stat, you tend to, you know, not be able to do those other things. But now that person could actually come in deploy and there's just so much that can help them win in the marketplace. So it's a really unusual and different way to think about what, you know, markets and capitalism might be. You know, it's more access to it and then more alternatives. And so that's sort of the AI white pill that I hope, you know, ploy actually becomes a really big part of. All right, so we've seen these this blast from the past and then brought into the future. Can we see what it actually looks like? Let's actually use ploy. Yeah, totally. So what you can do is you can sign up for ploy and then you can just get started. So it will know who you are, it'll know what domain you're coming from. And in this case, I'm just going to pretend that I'm someone from cursor. And we spent about I think like 750,000 dollars worth of tokens to create what's called the ploy slurper. And the ploy slurper essentially is a purely deterministic method to take existing website and to not just create a design system, but to create all the components that belong on your website. So then subsequently, your your next generations and stuff like that, it's going to be on brand. Their buttons are all going to look the same. You're not going to have 10 different variations of your header font. And those are the things that are going to be really important, especially as a business scales, you really want that sort of design consistency. So, that's what it's doing right now. This is the slurping. The design slipper is doing its job right now. That's right. And then, as it's slurping, it's going to ask you, "Hey, what's important?" And I'm going like, "Well, I think Cursor wants to get found in search and AI." I'm going to tell it that, and then I'm going to turn more visitors into customers. I hit that, and now it's going to imbue it into its memory. It's going to understand. It's like, "Okay, cool. This particular user, they they want to go and improve these things." And in about 75 seconds, we would have slurped the existing site, recreated all the components, refactored it, and you get this. And so, it's it's what operating in real time. I mean, it's probably doing the equivalent work of a team of three to five engineers and front-end people, and probably take a week, at least. They're probably going to open up Claude code or Cursor to try to do this. Yeah, but they'll do a much worse version of it. Here's the moment of truth. Let's see if this is responsive. Boom. Cool. So, it's responsive. You know, the fonts are showing up. Let's see if there's like some hover effects that we captured. Um down here. Okay, cool. Some CSS hover effects. So, these are all things that are just like all these details. Last mile. You need to have a opinion about how websites should be made in order to do this. But, this isn't the point, right? It's The point is not to just recreate something. The point is, after your website's done, what can it do to work for you? And that's where Play really shines. There's a bit of a nuance here that I don't know if everyone in the audience would know, but when you try to create something like this with any other vibe coding tool, is not consistent. It kind of remixed and forgets all the design consistency and that's pretty impressive to get it to do that. It's sort of the prompt following following the Yeah, this is this is where we I think in the age of AI, which is I think you need to have a certain amount of something that's just world-class. Let's see. So, say I'm Cursor, I released Composer as a new type of model. Can I just come and deploy and, you know, paste in screenshots and even my like PM spec and you can make the product page for me? Even better. So, we have integrations with like 50 different tools. It can not only just connect to your code base, but it connects to Figma, connects to all of your analytics tools, CRM, spreadsheets. It can even draft emails on your behalf based off of who's coming to your website. Okay. This looks like a company brain for your marketing then. Exactly. So, you start with the website, but that rapidly becomes sort of your company brain for how you describe your product and show it off. And it makes sense that you would start off with your home page. I mean, I'd probably do that the same thing, too. It's like your home page is sort of your face and if the home page doesn't have it, that's sort of almost like the source of truth for how you discuss what you're building. It really reminds me of Rippling in the early days. It would sound odd, but I remember like um the very first thing Parker built was an offer letter generator. You got to start somewhere. Start someplace. Yeah, but like it's the only insight you get as like a second-time founder. So, at the time I was like you're pitching this really big vision, but like you're starting with like an offer letter generator. But it Everyone has offer letters, everyone's hiring people. So, but then that becomes an HR system. And then once you have HR, you have auth, and then boom, you're like literally your company App Store OS. And if you think about the journey of a new employee, the very first step with a new employee is they get an offer letter. That's where like every every everything else starts. very first First thing with the thing with the website is the homepage, yeah. And then everything else on the page. even for a business, right? Like you might start with Stripe Atlas, but right after that, like I better make a homepage, and then it might be very cryptic, but when you actually launch it, it better say what it is. Yeah. So, it it can not only just integrate to your GitHub, but your entire systems of record. But, the really cool thing is that it's actually thinking about what to do while you're sleeping. So, every single night, we look at all the traffic, we check your Google Search Console, we see what your pipeline looks like. And it's able to like offer suggestions, right? Like, oh, you got a active Target account. Oh, you've got someone engaging with your campaign. Um these are all sort of things that it's telling you, like, and it's able to glean because instead of like checking your analytics every day, Noob Play can literally just tell you everything out of the box, right? So, this is just really basic analytics that we offer. But, it can also tell you who's coming to the site. And I think that's really cool, right? It's like, oh, wow, someone from this company clicked on this call to action button, and now I can do something with it. I think what's pretty cool is basically you're taking this very esoteric niche thing Open Claw users know about with a dream cycle when it iterates and improves the skills, which I think only people that are in the super long tail and in Open Claw, which I don't think the rest of the world knows, you're doing that in a for everyone else. Doing it for businesses cuz I just think that so many businesses, they have a great product, they have a great service, but there's just so much sort of unmet opportunity founders. And I'm really just here to make it easier for them to tap into it. So I wired this up to Y Combinator's Google Analytics and Google Search Console and pulled in all the data. And what was cool is that like right out of the box without me having to do anything other than like click through a couple of OAuth flows, it was able to give me like a full SEO report with a bunch of like suggestions for the site. And I was thinking about like how I would do it without ploy. And like with enough effort, I could have maybe gotten like Claude Code to do it. But like Claude Code doesn't know how to connect to any of those things out of the box. So I would have to like figure out the APIs and have to like suck in all the data. And it doesn't really know how to do SEO optimization. So like it would have been so much prompting and work to get that same result. Yeah. I I think that's stuff that I'm surprised by because I think the best companies that I've met in YC, they are on the right side of model development. And what these models need is with a little bit of steering, with a lot of data, there's just so much alpha that you can derive. So I think like that is one of those examples where let's just like feed the model data, structured, unstructured data, and just let it cook. How did you imbue it with like an understanding of like how to market websites, how to design websites? Are there some ways that you like distilled lessons from Webflow? This is stuff we geek out about at ploy. So we're we're in an app and that's behind the scenes mode. yeah, this is behind the scenes. The lookbook. So what you're looking at is our curation of what we believe is the frontier of web design. And this is stuff that you can't really get anywhere else. And we've used a collection of models, OpenAI's ChatGPT images, but then we've created 3,500 prompts for web designs that then ploy takes inspiration from. So you're not going to get a website that looks exactly like this when you're using ploy. What you're going to get is you're going to get some of the vibes of these sites. And I think that's really actually how human designers work, right? So, if you go and work with the agency or freelance web designer, some of the best might come up with something incredibly bespoke and unique that no one's ever seen before. But, a lot of them, you know, they get inspiration. And that's essentially what we're trying to do here with our product, which is like, "Hey, let's like emulate how real humans work, and let's think about how we can create some really unique layouts, really unique designs that can really stand out." Ploy is basically like the anti-slop. It looks like given the corpus of data that you have, the context you give the agents, it actually, you sort of overwhelms their um you know, inbuilt predilections. You know, you can one of the examples is like, for some reason that the models really love that um you know, left-hand rule with the rounded corners. I mean, in web design, there's so many AI tells. I would like to say that ploy eliminates all of them, but you can't necessarily eliminate all of it with all the prompts and guardrails and steering. However, we have spent a lot of time to make sure that the the sort of essence of the human individuals and like the the businesses' bespoke sort of representation, their brand can can be reflected in ploy to the best of our ability. And I think like the best analogy that I have for where we're at in the AI cycle is like Andy Warhol, you know, created paintings, but you know, the stuff eventually ended up at a factory, and the factory would use machines to recreate these prints. But, it's still Warhol. And I think that's where we're at, which is like these models, they are essentially the factories for human creativity. And that's essentially what I want to be able to deliver for digital marketing. Why digital marketing? Like, you could have done like factories for anything. Why is this the thing you decided to build the factory for? I think that the web is still one of the most transformational technologies. Um sure it's done some funny things with how we consume media, how we respect sort of media organizations. However, ultimately the sort of democratization, the dissemination of information for the internet to me is a really exciting tenant. It's a really exciting space to be even after working in this space for for dozens of years. My approach is that where we're at in AI these businesses, they still need to be found. And I actually think there's going to be way more small business in the future. You're not going to have like massive companies anymore that are dominating. I think We'd love that. Where where society is moving is I actually think like entrepreneurship might become way more important than it has been. Entrepreneurship, especially if you're small business, you need to be found. You need to be able to tell your story. You need to be able to represent your brand well. And I think that's just like a really exciting space for me. This is like 13 years after your prior company, Webflow. You were my group partner, remember? I remember you coming in with basically the best visual like graphical user interface for building a website because it was built directly off of CSS. Yeah. So, I mean it was incredibly novel at the time. But, you know, we created this visual interface over HTML, CSS, and JavaScript. And it was sort of, you know, the first no-code application that was out there. Powers, you know, big portion of the internet today, something I'm really really proud of. It's just one of those products and companies that I think is just uh I never knew it'd become that big. You know, I remember doing office hours with PG, and PG couldn't figure it out, and it was like, started to stress me out. We're all sweating. So, he doesn't know CSS. He knows HTML tags. And he, you know, and you could like put like font properties on it, you know, but that's about, you know, Hacker News was more or less like about what he understood. Yeah, and like for someone that's like as technical as PG, we thought that it was like, oh, he would be able to get it. I mean, he built Hacker News, right? So, this was 2013. Um, what was the market for website builders like then? I think it was pretty competitive by that point. It was extremely competitive. Um, I could probably I remember there's probably eight of them, four of them I still remember. And then even in our history there were so many different ones that popped up, right? So, I think like the things that we did really well was, and it really bothered me at the time, but my co-founders Sergie and Vlad were like perfectionists. And they just like stressed over every minute thing, and when you're building something that's supposed to scream pro, it's supposed to scream craft, that really helped. Maybe go into more detail. Like how did you come up with the original idea? And I I think the reason it's interesting is it feels like from our perspective in the batches, we ChatGPT launched, and there was just a green field for like all these ideas to build. Now it feels like we're entering a bit more of an age of where it's competitive and it's harder, and often you're entering in a new idea, but you've got several competitors. So, like how do you build the confidence to enter a space that's competitive, and how do you know that you have like a edge that's worth digging into? I think for me this time around, uh, it's almost opposite of Webflow. At Webflow, we focused on one persona. That persona was this like freelance web designer, you know, just like there's probably only 50,000 of them, honestly. With Ploy, you know, we're essentially solving for tens of millions of people. And I think that's just like a really interesting thing now that you can do now with AI. And we've talked about like boiling the lakes, the oceans. Like this is a very much Play is very much a boil the ocean type of thing. couldn't do this before, but now you can do it. And you can do it to just sort of a award-winning degree. You know, I've been in tech since 2006, like 20 years. And, you know, when cloud computing came out, it was like, "Oh, this is revolutionary. I've got like untapped sort of compute, networking, storage." And now, you know, as of a couple years ago, there's this new primitive of intelligence. It's just like so irresistible to not build something in this space. How has that changed the way that you built Play? How is it like the first 3 months or so of Play being compared to the first 3 months of Webflow? To be honest, when we were in YC 2013, we worked a lot, and we also covered so much product in those 3 months manually coding. Like, what is this? Like, I have to like type stuff? So, I would say that we covered a lot of functionality just coding. But, now it's obviously a different league. Everyone can code. Um you don't have to have all this background and infrastructure and systems design, you know, like these models are really, really good at it. So, I would say like the biggest difference is the output. You know, you're probably going to get more tests than you ever wanted. You're probably going to get way more code coverage, way more sort of functionality. But, the thing that hasn't changed is what to focus on and how to how to actually mold it. I think that's something that still benefits experienced builders. That's something that if you have a very strong vision, if you have all that track record of building products, that's where AI can really help you. I'm curious how that factored into building Play. Like, you've been doing website design the old-fashioned way since 2012. You probably watched a million people use Webflow to design a website. Can you like remember decisions you made and how you designed Play that maybe somebody who didn't have that experience would have like not done it that way. I have such a great example of this. For example, I just like have spent so much time in a visual builder, right? I was like, you need this panel to help you like drag and drop and to help you resize elements, to help you control the flow. And we stressed a lot about how to like bring some of that visual tooling into ploy. And then we just kept deferring it. We kept deferring it. And we're essentially at a position now where if you essentially just give the models enough context, screenshots, images, and just essentially here's something that you can do right here is you can essentially just use our annotation feature and say click on this and just like rewrite this copy, make it super bold. You just send it off and now you can just have this web designer that's imbued in the product that just sort of absorbs your intention and translates it into incredible outputs. Let's play it out a little bit. The models are going to get I don't know, I you know, unbelievably better from here. And then where does that leave ploy? Like, you know, what how how good is it going to get from here? What's the future of the web? I can't predict the future. However, I can predict that there will be tons of businesses out there that are going to want an opinionated solution to help them solve real problems for the things that really matter to them. The way I think about it is that these underlying models, they're really good at a lot of different things. They're general purpose. They're general purpose. And I think there's just going to be a a big need for something that is purpose-built to help a customer achieve an outcome. And that's where products, even pure SaaS products, still have a right to really kind of explore that and to really leverage the model capabilities to benefit the end customers. I guess there's an interesting um competitive play here. Like basically if Floy becomes really really good, you know, one of the things you do for instance is um everyone's on the internet's talking about loops. But you know, you have basically a marketing and you know, SEO/GEO marketing loop. You build content, you figure out how to say what you need to say to get someone to understand what it is to want it. And then you improve it and uh agency it, agents want to use it. Uh people see it, you know, they click on it, they want to use it. In the future like if you're not using things like Floy then your competitors will win. So there is like a competitive dynamic to it, which has already happened for coding tools for instance. Like sort of unconscionable in uh 2026 to not be using Cloud Code or Codex or Cursor, you know, just you wouldn't you wouldn't be able to stay on top of what's going on. I happen to think that software engineers are one of like the worst customers to to sell to and they they can change tools on a whim. Something new comes out over here, they'll adopt it. So I I see it as like almost this this market that's always incredibly competitive but also like lowest common denominator. It's like who's going to provide a engineer the most tokens and and that can always shift and that battle is just really really difficult. For me, I'm always someone and maybe this is where my background working at Intuit sort of comes into play. It's just like, "Hey, just go and pick a customer that has like a true true true pain point and just really really focus on that." To me, it's businesses, it's small businesses, it's startups and I think like by building this product to to solve for the their most important pain points. I think that's going to be one of those things that I'm always going to try to focus on. I think there's a world which I think it is true where there's still a lot of um that you can value that you can build on top of the models because these are so good and I think the limiting factor is knowing how to prompt them and sort of imbuing all these 20 years of plus experience that you have to really get the models to focus. It is almost like you're building a very special harness. We talk about a harness as this being this thin layer to getting the models to do the right outcome and Anthropic did it wonderfully for Claude code. It took the world by storm and within just a year, there's a lot more that can be done for lots of domains. So you're kind of doing that for website creator creation. We have mean you're selling skills, but you're also selling code and it's fat skills, fat code. Some of these foundational primitives. So for example, you're getting a database out of the box that is very opinionated around website use cases, CRM use cases. And sure, you can go and you know, go use a Postgres hosted Postgres server, but if you're a small business owner or if you're a CMO, you don't want to worry about that. You're not going to go and stitch together this MCP and have your Claude code instance and then make sure it's running all the time. These are just to your point, Diana, the harnesses that we're going to make sure is always working for you and ultimately it's going to drive you outcomes without you losing sleep over it. Has anyone asked you yet for um ploy, but um make it really really easy for agents to use a given product? Like do you have a bunch of lookbook stuff around proper LLMs.txt and things like that? I mean, in the YC batch we're seeing this wave of forget it's like code.storage for instance is doing super well, right? And then In Sforge in the current YC batch, um is like sort of AWS agent phone, agent mail, like resend. If the agents choose you, that's actually big and you're going to win. Yeah, that is huge. And I think that's one of the biggest benefits of doing YC again is that I'm living 2 years into the future like right now here at YC. And just being able to see these founders think in this way, I was just like oh, I never even thought of that. And to that point, you know, you're getting a lot of stuff out of the box and play to make sure that it's AEO. You get FAQ sections, you get structured sort of schema markups, bots are crawling it, connections to all the things. But I think one of the most exciting things is being able to let agent sign up for play. Of course, so that works. Working on it. Working on it. Um so then, you know, we just wire it up to your claw and like if claw needs to go and build a really awesome site, play is one of the places where hopefully it can go. Yeah. Are you going to do MCP or how are you going to implement it? I think we're going to do a CLI with skills. So an MCP would be really good if we had more constrained sort of things. However, I think with the number of things that you can do in play, I think the CLI is going to be the way we we do it. CLI seems to be becoming the the right UX for agents. This is why I think, going back to Clockwork versus Cursor, and that I'm doing so well. It is a It is just so much more freedom being fully on the command line. Same Same thing with open claw. I mean, ASCII characters, they're really good. I'm curious to get your perspective as like, you know, one of the more experienced founders in the batch. Like we Again, we suddenly saw ChatGPT launch. It was a heavy snap towards young founders sort of like intense rise of young founders because there's only young founders that are actually well, using the technology and building with the tools. Um it seems like it's either coming back towards the middle or extending further in the other direction. Not sure. What's your take on it from being in the batch and then it to you saying you can share like what when you look around and you see young founders like where do you see them having an edge and where do you feel like like I don't know I've got you. I do think as an experienced founder, there's just so many lived experiences you've had. Um there's so much appreciation for how something gets done. And sometimes it actually can hold a founder back. You're like, "Oh, don't do that. It's really, really hard. I was burned by that many years ago." So, I think like you have to kind of for for experienced founders adopt a little bit more of that bravado and that risk appetite. But then also for the earlier founders, I should have maybe appreciation for how some things you have to get right. And not to bring it back to play again, but you can't create 100 websites and then expect Google to think that, "Hey, you're a authoritative source." And just creating content for content's sake is not the goal. So, I always bring it back to like the first principles of it, right? Just like make sure you can tell a coherent story, make sure you're providing value in the world, and then hopefully people will notice and you'll succeed. What what you get to do today is you get to draw on all these years of like all the things that went wrong and all the things that went right and um I like the idea of you just go directly to the part of the idea maze that you were before. And then when you have a company that's multi-billion dollar company like Webflow, like many, you know, how many people were in your org? Um hundreds. Yeah. I mean basically when you have that momentum in like what the org is and what you're trying to do, like how often is it that you're in that little idea maze and you're just like trying to see around corners, like you avoid monsters and like find the gold, right? And once in a while there's like this offshoot that comes off and you're like, well, like the gold's over there for sure, but man, if I could clone myself, I would like go and check out this other place and like there might be even more gold. I don't know. It's like one of those things that now with a lot of experience, you could just like you can actually do both of these things. the keyword there was clone yourself. I have always lived in scarcity, scarcity of time, scarcity of my own capacity, mental and physical, but I mean, AI is here and I'm really replicating myself, not just in the products, not just in the technology that we're building, but also in the company, then also in some of those sort of really AI native ways that we're trying to build a company as well. And that's just like a completely different world. Can you talk about any of them? I mean, I think we're doing the stuff that everyone else in YC I see is doing, right? Making sure everything is recorded, making sure that your cloud code, you know, can access all of this, making sure that, you know, our systems and operations on the go-to-market side are as automated as possible. So, every single call gets transcribed, gets put in the CRM, proposals get automatically drafted, email follow-ups are automatically scheduled, and now like we're just able to just like take on way more, way faster, and still feel like we have room to think. And I think that's something that's just like a level of abundance that people don't really talk about when they're talking about AI. I mean, I just love the, you know, not only do you get to think, but um you also have the agent run a cron that will surface interesting patterns and it'll think with you. My favorite thing to do is go into open claw and just say like, what did you learn about me or YC or my companies in the last week? Like what was the most surprising thing? And then when you have Fable 5, it's like actually really insightful. I was like, oh, I didn't notice that. That's really interesting. So, one of the cool things um to go back to the idea maze analogy is um you know, not only do you in your brain have it all mapped out. I mean, to talk about Parker Conrad and Prasanna again briefly about rippling. I mean, obviously Zenefits was this huge um you know, all the way up and then all the way down, you know, sort of rise and fall. Uh and it was such a no-brainer for me to fund him again because I knew that he had loaded all of that stuff into his brain. Like he knew uh who to sell to, you know, uh he sure did know the regulatory by then, you know, when that's like seared into your brain at that point. And you could just go directly to that point again. And you know, the difference between uh him and you, Bryant, is that uh he still took 2 years, and he went into a cave, and he had to write code with a team of five or 10 people literally in a basement in the Mission. I'd go and visit him. After the first 6 months, I was like, okay, cool, you haven't launched anything yet, no worries. And then like after a year, I was like, oh yeah, it's been a year. Like but the demos are really impressive. And then after 2 years, I was like, oh man, like are we going to launch? Like you know, what's going to happen? And then of course he did launch, but he didn't launch like just this one little thing. It wasn't like a wedge. He actually launched the whole package of HR and onboarding in one go with insurance like done right, you know, without having to scale with people and things like that. And so, that was sort of the defining startup that I got to see uh you know, sort of before AI really came to the fore in a way. And what is happening now is that uh instead imagine, you you Bryant, you're in this idea maze, but you don't clone yourself like once, you don't clone yourself twice. Uh I mean, by my measure with G brain and G stack and just like the code I'm releasing open source, I'm actually on on track to do like four or five million lines of logical logical lines of code. This is like adjusted for like bloat and things like that. And so it's basically like 400 to 1,000 clones of myself from, you know, of of from 2026 right now, right? So not only do you are you able to sort of like flash forward into exactly the right place inside the idea maze, but um you know, you have like 500 to 1,000 versions of yourself with like your skills and your taste and all the, you know, imagination and the things that came with you, you know, like Parker still needed to hire five and 10 more people and that was a process. It's like, how do I train people? How do I give them the right things? How do I give them like a few weeks and then let's do a checkpoint like, you know, did you do what I need or not? And then now it's like actually what would take a week or a month or a year, like you literally do in, you know, minutes, hours or, you know, at the worst like you could build a whole cathedral of like 20 to 40,000 lines of code, like what would take a typical engineer an entire year, you do it in a few days, right? This is like a really it's not like a little thing. It's actually a really big thing that's happening. So this is why this is the age of the 40-year-old uh solo founder. I mean, you don't have to be 40, you just have to have taste, you know? That's right. It takes a while for a startup to catch fire, but I feel like I'm standing outside with the magnifying glass under the blazing sun and I'm able to focus it and I'm able to focus all my experience, background, technical and knowledge of the customer base, knowledge of their buying patterns, knowledge of these cycles and just catch something with fire. Well, let's [ __ ] go. Love it. Brian, thanks a lot for joining us. Um for those of you watching, if you actually want more customers, if you actually want to win, if you want to beat your competitors, I don't know why you wouldn't use ploy.ai. Thanks guys for having me.