Wikipedia Pressed the Red button on Odin | TheStandup

Welcome everybody to the standup. Today we might have one of the single greatest episodes ever as we will be arguing over everything that is just so dang intense. But before we begin, before I even get to the episode, we always have to address the blockers. Do we have any blockers? YEAH. Uh anyways, sorry. It's a short one. I'll send it in the Twitch chat so you can display it to the audience. Um, I I got outpuned by someone recently on X.com and their their request was that I share it as my blogger. So, I just wanted to make sure I'm coming through on my promises and my commitments. This is a place where we make sure we follow through. Maybe you could do a dramatic reading problem. That would be really helpful for me cuz your screen's 12 pixels on my end. Yes. Yes. First, I'll describe what is happening. It starts off with a picture that has like a what appears to be a very girthy door. I'm thinking what 4 in thick right there. At least 4 in, bro. Wo. At least not only but also the door makes no sense. It looks like it's it splits the entryway down the twain like or it splits it in twain because look at it. Like that door is too big to fit in there. Yeah. So you push it in and then turn it. Yeah. It's really confusing. It says, "Where do we even buy a door like this?" And read the name of the company. Read the name. So, it's called Founders Fund. And so, he asks, Ryan Peterson asks, "Where do you even buy a door like this?" TJ responds with at Founders Find. I don't get that. It wasn't that good. Instead of It was actually such a bad pun. Like TJ level pun. This has to be one of your worst. It was It was just guys, hey, okay, you shoot, you take a lot of shots on goal if you're a guy like me. Okay. Thank you, Trevor. Yeah. Then dang because his name was already with handle already taken solves uh says more like found doors. That one was good. Found Found out his name is already taken so is just like a way to say sorry. Yeah, thank you trash for the cultural update. That's great. He said salves. I was like I can't. That's a good point. That's a good point. Continue though. Prime. There's a little bit more. There's still some good stuff in the thread. Oh, there is. I thought you just said I like that one, too. And he says, "Mention my tweet on the stand up." Uh, or you will be found dead. Oh my gosh. Dead. That's good. Found dead. Oh my gosh. That is a good one. That's a good one. Wow. He got me with the back to back, so I said it it'll be one of my blockers. So, just so you guys know, if you come at me with some good puns, you'll make it onto the pod. I mean, that's that's pretty much the most intense thing that I do on a week-toeek basis is puns on the internet. So, if you've got some and you're ready to go. I mean, I'm I'm listening. I'm always I'm always available for that. So, that's my blocker. Thank you everyone. Appreciate the time. TJ's made an entire career off of making puns on the internet. That's true. It's true. That's actually I thought he'd stop by now. Nope. Nope. Just going to keep going. Um, that's my blocker. Casey, I thought you had a blocker though. I had a blocker. I don't think so. Here's a real one. Yeah, Casey, you said you had a blocker. We were calling the Wikipedia situation a blocker. So, yeah, this was sort of a uh maybe we could call it a blocker for the the the Odin community large. Mhm. Most people, probably anyone who watches this show because Prime has covered it before, but on you know, if you're watching this YouTube channel, for example, uh you probably know there is a programming language called Odin that people use to do stuff. It's a relatively new language, and by that I mean, you know, 10 years or so. It's so it's not new like yesterday, but you know, new in the pantheon of uh languages like C that have been around for uh five decades or more. Anyway, uh this language does not currently have a Wikipedia page, which is kind of odd because, you know, if you were wondering what is the Odin language, you might want to be able to read a Wikipedia page about it that would like consolidate some links for you and have like a summary of the grammar, which is just generally what languages, programming languages have on Wikipedia. And you could go on Wikipedia and you can get this for a lot of languages, which I think is nice, including languages that are extremely esoteric. uh languages that only people like me are ever looking for uh because we're doing historical research or whatever you know there is to it. So that is how you would like things to function. Unfortunately, as many people know, if they've ever interacted with Wikipedia as sort of a a the hive mind that is Wikipedia, they have a lot of rules and often times these rules require them or seem to require them to do things that are counterproductive. So there actually was a wiki page, Wikipedia page for Odin and it got deleted. And the reason it got deleted was because they decided that Odin was not a notable enough language. And notability is like a thing that's based on sort of their rule set. It has to do with like how many third-party publications, you know, think Wired magazine or something, have ever mentioned Odin before and things like this. It doesn't include things like, oh, lots of people are making programming languages in Odin or you can go on YouTube and find Prime talking about Odin or anything like that. Those are things that don't count according to them, right? So, normally I suppose we wouldn't necessarily talk about this on uh the standup, but amusingly for some reason somebody tweeted at Jimmy Wales, and I don't know why, and basically said like, "Why did Odin, you know, like what's going on here?" And Jimmy Wales was like, "Can someone send me a link to this or whatever?" And Jimmy Wales looked at the talk page for it and was like, "Seems seems correct. Seems like they deleted it. I don't know. this this language doesn't sound very interesting or whatever, right? It's like I'm fine with that. And so a bunch of us interruption, who's Jimmy Wales? So Jimmy Wales, I sure, you obviously already know who he is, but for the sake of the audience, Jimmy Wales is, and this apparently is very controversial what I'm about to say. Oh, I love it already. Jimmy Wales is the co-founder of Wikipedia now. He literally, I guess, walked out of an interview because someone referred to him as the co-founder and not the founder of Wikipedia. So, oh, I love that. So, maybe I should just say he's the founder of Wikipedia. I don't know. I don't have any idea what that was about, but this was this is apparently a thing. Um, if you want to go ahead and Google for like uh Jimmy Wales walks out of interview, you can watch it. I don't know. Okay. Well, Casey, Casey, I have the definitive proof. Okay. Since we know Wikipedia is the source of all truth, it is said he is best known for co-founding Wikipedia. Exactly. And and that's why I said that's why I said co-founded and that's also why the interviewer said co-founded. He says it right in the clip. He's like on Wikipedia it says you were a co-ounder. That's so funny. So, so I I I don't know like right like I I have no maybe there was some bad blood there. Maybe it's a sore subject. I have no idea. All I know is up and then call him co-founder. Like I just feel like that is the and then hang up. Yeah. And then he'll walk out. I don't have any a better solution, but I want to hear the rest of the story first. So anyway, um the only reason that this has now became a thing is because um you know he he tweeted about it, right? And so a bunch of us replied and like uh I replied for example being like I don't understand like what's the deal? Like this this is a programming language that's definitely notable. Like that's really not debatable at this point. like you know uh Gingerbell got hired by Django Effects literally the c a company whose entire codebase is written by Odin he got hired to maintain Odin at that company because it's critical to their software stack right um and so to me like that's enough because if I'm trying to understand like sort of programming language stuff if I'm trying to understand like that company and what their software was written in you know much less relevant languages are have been documented and I'm glad they've been documented like purely theoretical languages that have only existed for people to kind of talk about or analyze things like yeah things which no one will ever ship anything with like sorry I'm sorry there's functional programmer people out there who are losing their mind right now no I mean but seriously I think it's a good thing to basically say look let's document what these things are it's a nice repository for that and as long as you have good sources for what the language actually is and in the case of something like Odin It's very easy. You can go on to GitHub and you can get the language. You can use it. You can read their documentation. Um, one of the Django effects uh engineers has a big blog post where he talks about how they used it uh or how he was like uh had to learn it when he was going to go uh use it at Django Effects and things like that. So, it's pretty easy to find out um what this language is like and pretty easy to be wiki page. I'm just like, if in general Wikipedia does not support having a page on Odin, then I think there's something wrong. Like that just indicates to me that this is not the repository of knowledge that I would want it to be. Now granted, you don't have to care what I want, but I'm just that's my feedback, right? Like my feedback is that's really stupid. Um, and also kind of a part with other things things that I've seen with Wikipedia where like in general I find that the information on Wikipedia could be a lot more accurate than it was if they didn't rely on this really stupid process of always wanting like Wired magazine to launder the information first, which is sort of like this game of telephone where it's guaranteed to be at least partially wrong and partially slanted by what the interviewer's like angle was at the time that they were writing the artic. article and you know this is just something that you know if you've been involved in something and then seen how it gets laundered through the press and then in into Wikipedia you're like this is not very good and in an era where it's actually pretty easy for us to go to primary sources ask them questions look at what people who are arguing about the thing are saying about it in real time it just seems antiquated right it's sort of like it's like going back to an encyclopedia Britannica um model of doing things. I'm just like it doesn't really make much sense to me. The stinger came when Jimmy Wales was like replied to me going like I didn't realize that there was a company that had written you know its its uh its software commercial software in this language. Do you have a a source for that? And I'm like this is the problem Jimmy. The problem is the sources are all around you. Like everyone knows that the people at Jenga like the source is in the real and literally to his that tweet that Jimmy posted one of the founders of Jenga effects replies and goes we wrote the thing in Odin the f like it's like the it's like Jimmy Wales replies to me the founder replies to him and so I'm like this is what I mean. It's like that should be the way that we assess things is by looking at what the people are actually saying. Now, Wikipedia's argument against this is this very strange idea to me in a in a modern context. Like the reason that they don't like that idea is because they seem to think that having a journalist in the loop makes it more likely to be accurate. Whereas the opposite is true in my in in in my entire experience. Do people lie? Of course they do. Are journalists more likely to report something accurate than the person who was actually involved? No. Even including the lies in my experience. Even including the people who lie, right? Because often times the journalist only checks the lies when the lies are not what the journalist was wanting to report. Right? They there it's very it's like this it's a very ugly system currently the way we do media and it it doesn't work very well in my opinion. So pretending that it's adding a layer of like fault tolerance is backwards to me. It's adding a layer of faultiness to the system. So anyway, that was the whole that's the whole ordeal basically. To this day, I don't think Odin now has a Wikipedia page, which is ridiculous. And when it was brought up as well that like, oh, like newer languages like Zigg and things like that do have Wikipedia pages, the response sort of from Wikipedia was like, well, maybe they shouldn't have one either, right? Like it was like it was it was I like that. I like that response kind OF. IT WAS TAKING MY TOYS and going home, you know? Yeah. It was kind of like, you know, on the margin like maybe this has a few more references, but their main thing was like it doesn't matter if some other language has it because maybe that language should be deleted too and we just haven't gotten to that yet, right? So like like in their opinion like put like what about this other article is not allowed on Wikipedia. And that's maybe more reasonable, but it also made me a little bit worried because I'm like does that mean the Zig page is getting deleted next? is the Jai page apparently got merged with John's uh entry now for example like so like like what's going to happen to these pages that in my opinion were valuable to people who didn't you know don't necessarily have a centralized way to look up like what is uh you know one of these languages so I don't know it just the whole thing kind of sucked in my opinion not that I was a huge fan of Wikipedia but I would like them to maybe acknowledge that they need an update to the way things are being done because the most accurate information is now coming and the people doing it and they post a lot of things and you can use those things. So a bias against primary sources seems bad. I have a question. Primary source Oh, go ahead. Trash. Of course. So I'm not a big Wikipedia user, but back in my day, I thought anyone could just put anything on Wikipedia. When when did they start enforcing like you can't put this on here? Cuz I remember we would just go on there and just like tweak someone's page just to be funny. Yeah, that's to see if you would just say the history of just like trash, you know. So quick point of when did they become a standup citizen? Like literally right after you guys started doing that. That's why they had to start. Yeah. Trash. You may you may have been the problem here. Trash. Answer to this. That was the best part of Wikipedia. All right. So Odin doesn't have a Wikipedia page because of trashdev 10 years ago. I want to know what what does it cost them to have these p like what is the purpose of deleting a page? like isn't there a way to flag it saying hey there's no media sources citing this therefore there could be you know incredible facts in here which they do and they have that uh those kind of like things where like this doesn't have enough references or the references may be unreliable and so the deleting of the page seems completely unnecessary to me. I completely agree with you. Um I don't know why they do that. That's probably something where they're just like, well, we want to make sure that in general, like they must believe that having a Wikipedia page confers some kind of, you know, status on on people or things. And so, they're trying to preserve that. And to me, that just doesn't seem necessary because, at least in my experience, I've found so many Wikipedia pages on completely esoteric things that no one probably should care about. Um, and that I didn't suddenly think, "Oh my god, this thing is so much more important than I thought it was." Like, I never had that. Like, I'm just like, "Yeah, everything under the sun has a Wikipedia page, so like who cares, right?" So, it does seem like pretty free for them to just leave the page up, put a thing on top of it that says, you know, this needs more secondary sources for authentication or something. And what's the problem, you know, but but in, you know, in their mind, that's not good enough. I guess or or you know, I'm not sure. I uh this one's a long shot of a joke, so just Okay. Okay. Just bear with me. I just want to do a little table talk first about it before I go that it's a long shot and I'm aware before it fails. Um so we'll just pretend that I didn't say that though, like for the sake of the joke. Yeah, exactly. Um uh maybe with the joke. Yeah. Well, maybe. Yeah. Yeah. We'll cut to commercial. You're killing me, merge cop. That little stunt of yours turned into a 6-hour postmortem. HE'S MERGING ABROAD. YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO REMAIN SILENT. COME ON, KAMISH. That code wasn't clean, and you know I don't got time for this. Vim RC's are being vandalized across the city. The differ. No, no, no. The Differ's a myth. The Diffler's out there, and I'm going to be the one to deprecate him. You need to focus on your Jira tickets, not chasing a ghost. No more cowboy coding for you. I'm assigning you a partner. A partner? You can't do this to me. I am a lone wolf. I'm an IC. I do not need some deadweight junior dev hold me back. No, no, you're not reverting this one, Merge Cop. He might actually teach you a thing or two. He did graduate top of his class with a flawless CI record. Merge Cop, meet your partner, Lieutenant Squash. Pleasure to knit your acquaintance. Mergeop tasks. functional tests, end to end tests, acceptance tests, performance tests, load tests, stress tests, math tests, system tests, internationalization test all units, there has been a reporting of a Diffler sighting at a local cafe. Copy. We're on it. It's our chance to get the Diffler. Get in. Compatibility test. I just want to throw more kinds of test. Shut it, Twitch. It's time to get the Dler. Sanity test. Snapshot test. Smell that. I've been telling them I need new money. Like you're in a boat. Tell your product. The commission said we have to stay in the car. I'm about to get force my fist in the Differ's face. We have to stick to the process. What do you think you're doing? Uh, building in public. Wrong answer. Difference. This is just a side project. What is Merge Cop even doing? I'm working on my side project. I don't even need him. I'm using Code Rabbit. With something like Code Rabbit rabbit, it's like having a code-founder always watching my back. I'm not going to leak customer information. I'm always going to be up to date on coding best practices. You don't believe me? You can try it too at code rabbit.ai. Next week on Merge Cop. I'm on your dip like a Oh, I know you're the dip. The guy who did the founders fund thing right now has like 12 better ones than that. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Sorry. Continue. Continue. There's not much to continue. I mean, that's kind of uh I didn't I didn't know that to change about uh Wikipedia requiring or saying that there must be some sort of external source like wired because by that very definition, if you don't take it from the person who's creating its mouth, but instead have it passed through a third party, you are inherently adding effectively noise to the signal, which means that all Wikipedia has to be incorrect to some amount. It's like telephone. Well, it's to be clear. Let me try and I mean I'll try to do the best job I can representing Wikipedia here, which I don't like. So, I'm the wrong person to do it, but All right. Come on, Casey Wales. Tell me also co-founder. So, I would just add a slight caveat there, which is that there's two separate things here. There's two separate qualities that they're trying to assess. One is accuracy of the information, right? And that's not really what we're talking about here. So, nobody was saying that the Odin page contained lies or something like that or or that it was, you know, uh, illconceived or that there is no programming language called Odin or that Ginger Bill is a secret figure with the CIA doing a scoping, right? Whatever. He's not He doesn't really have red hair, right? Oh, really? No one was claiming those things. That's true. That's true. Trash. It's true. Trash. 100% true. That's He started it as a fake news thing. I'm disappointed. I couldn't tell because he's bald, right? I'm pretty sure he was bald when I met him. So, here's the thing. What they're talking about is Notability. So, Notability is trying to determine whether or not this thing should have a Wikipedia page. Now, as Sorry, laughing. Am I wrong? Did I say he's bald? He's not bald. Am I? No, no, no. Trish one, you're right. But he is a ginger. We're just trolling you. Oh, okay. Yeah. All right. Yeah. So, me and Bri, sorry. Okay. See you. I said it as a joke, like to spread misinformation. He's like, like there's no misinformation. Like, yeah, like Bill's not a ginger. And you're just like, he's not a ginger. Well, I I don't know. I'm like, you know, all these people are watching. I don't want to be uh I don't want to be like, "Oh, he's actually a ginger." I don't know. I don't know. All right. If only you worked for Wired Magazine Prime, that would be authoritative. You would be like, "Yep, he's not a ginger." Be a notable fact. So uh so basically the there's two separate things. One is accuracy and the other is notability. And so for accuracy you can actually go on to uh and there's and there's even a third thing which is bias. So Wikipedia has all of those kind of in the mix. So they they'll have like a source ranking like you know let's take Mother Jones magazine. I think their listing for that was that it is generally accurate but biased, right? Um, now I don't know if I would agree with Generally Accurate, but let's say that that's a reasonable split. It's like, yeah, okay, they are definitely a biased magazine. They have a very specific point of view. Maybe their fact-checking is okay. Uh, I I don't know that I've thought it was fantastic, but whatever. Um, I don't think a lot of magazines things are are good factchecking, so who knows? By Wikipedia standards, maybe it is accurate. So, those things are not the the important part, though. Notability. That's why they're trying to say we need these sort of secondary sources, right? And so for them, notability is basically like saying there's certain people whose opinions count for notability and certain people who don't. Okay? And this is the part that I h have the biggest problem with because accuracy is a separate issue that I wish they would also address, but that's separate. In my opinion, YouTube now is probably one of the most important places to gauge notability. It's where people make their money. Like, like YouTube Substack, if you're still working for a like legacy news outlet, then I don't even know like you're some boomer dinosaur. Like, no, no offense, but like nobody I don't even use see for a living. Calling you a boomer is amazing. I'm the most I am the most I like everyone knows that I generally will stick with something as long as it's working. Like I can't imagine opening up the Washington Post to get your news in the morning. That that to me feels like you would have to be utterly crazy to think that that was the most efficient way to assess what was going on. When you can literally go find like people who are literally there at whatever the thing is that you're wondering about and you can go see what's going on for yourself. It's so weird, right? It's like it's relying on third-hand information in an era where firsthand information is so abundant that you can get every possible take on the thing that you might want in real time. And yet somehow you're asking for it to be filtered through some person who couldn't get a job anywhere else. So they're working at the Washington Post who all they're doing is watching the same social media feed you are and is writing it up. It's ridiculous to think that that's a thing, right? Like it's forget it. It's It's so funny seeing like the headlines of what everyone was talking about on X like two or three days ago show up and it's like exactly, oh my goodness, you guys won't believe it. Blah blah blah. And it's like we were talking about that yesterday, guys. And I got a better article by reading 30 people's tweets about it. Like totally. And like it's just like okay, you know, um is some place like uh social media a bastion of accuracy? No, it's not. Like there's so much garbage on there, right? But the bottom line is like that's actually where the best source of information is if you're actually trying to curate it properly, right? It's going to be way better than the filter feeder version of that which was it curated by people who have no idea about the subject domain, right? It's like someone who has no idea how to program hardly at all is going to filter feed the like stuff that happens in programming. like somebody at Wired magazine who knows like 100th of 1% of what any of us on the standard in their standard. Yeah. And like they're the ones who are supposed to filter feed this for it's like it's ridiculous. It doesn't make any sense. So to me I just checked I don't have a Wikipedia page. That's absurd, right? It's absurd. How do you have a How do you have a million subscribers of on something? How is that not notable? Right? It doesn't make sense. I go in and delete it every time he tries to make one. I'm like, don't let this get to his head. He's He's got a Wikipedia page. Oh, now he's notable. He's showing up to the coffee shop saying, "Yes, order for the primogen." It's like, it's too much for me. So, I make sure I do have this though. I do have a wiki tube page. Oh, what? Oh, what's that? That sounds not appropriate for work. Well, as you can see, it is it is that it's just me looking terrible and it's just facts about me. So, I do have a page. It's just not the page that, you know, I would choose. So anyway, I don't manage that page. To me, notability is should not like we now have much better ways of assessing notability. Like if you want to know what people are actually noticing, we literally have view counts. Like we literally have ways like some rando at the New York Times should have no more influence on what is notable than anyone else. They're just a random person. And in my experience, whenever I read articles in press anywhere about things I know about, they're way they're they're like completely not knowledgeable. Like they are not what I would consider that's called the Turing test. Well, it's actually called uh it's called the Galman amnesia effect. Yes. The Gellman. It's called the Galman amnesia effect. It's man. Oh, is it man? Sorry. GMAN amnesia. I've never heard his name pronounced. It's by Mury Galman. You're gonna trust Prime on pronunciation is crazy. It's G. You know, it's it's it's mn. It's a problem. Yeah. Galman or Galman. I have no idea how to pronounce his name. Someone could go find out. Uh it was basically a thing coined by Michael Kiteon, like the guy who wrote Jurassic Park, uh the Andromeda strain, right? Um so that he he gave a speech one time and he was basically just talking about it was either speech or interview. I'm not sure which. And he basically said like, "Look, um, I have this thing where I, you know, I'm involved in the entertainment business very heavily now. And so when I read articles in the press about the entertainment industry, I'm like, they got this totally wrong." Like none, like none of this is right. Like what's going on? But for some reason, when I go read like about, you know, the the war in Iran, I suddenly think for some reason that I'm reading actual information. But I just had the in I just literally had it demonstrated to me on the previous page that they don't have any idea what they're talking about for something that I do know about. So why would I think they know what they're talking about for this? And uh the the reason he called it the the GM man amnesia effect is because I I think he was a prominent physicist at the time and he was basically saying like look when that guy reads the science column he's like oh man this is awful but then he flips the page and reads something else and thinks that that's news right but it's not. It's just somebody who doesn't really know very much is attempt to summarize what happened and it's probably wrong. Right? And so to me like we are at a point in time where we can start to move past that. We have enough ability now to collect information from the people who are actually there. We can find out from Django Effects's founders directly from on the record without going through a third party. Do they think they wrote their code in Odin or not? That to me is a magazine article because I ain't believe in the founder. All right. They're they're they're so bi they just want money. Good point. Uh and the same thing for Notability. Do you want to know if Prime's notable? Go look at his YouTube. Look at how many comments they're on it. Look at how many millions of viewers there are. Like that's it's notable. Like done. Who cares what the New York Times thinks? They're antiquated. No one cares about that anymore. The New York Times is for games now. They make most of their money selling you games. That's what they do, right? So, yeah, if I wanted to know how to make a good crossword puzzle, maybe I'd ask them. If I want to know what's notable, forget it. They're old news. They're not interesting. Dang. I agree with everything you just said, Casey. All right. Yeah. I will say I do want to throw out I think Gelman Amnesia also is playing a really pivotal role right now in LLM. All right. Gel man. It's gel. I I always called it gel man, but it could be gel man. I don't I don't actually know if it's gel or gel. He's the gel man. Well, that's because dude, G G G G G G G G G G G G G G G G G G G G G's are very confusing. Is it GitHub or is it Github? I don't know. Is it GIF or is it GIF? I don't know. I don't know, but it's down. Yeah, it's down. I I know that I can't see it, but um but with with LM, you see these tweets happening all the time like, dude, they're so good at backend, but man, they're really bad at front end. Right. Exactly. And you're like, yeah, bro, that's definitely what's happening. That's it's not it's not that you don't know what's happening on the back end. It's that they're really good at it and you just simply only know things about the front end. Exact. It's very fantastic. It's pronounced if Okay, nice. Uh anyways, I had one other thing. I did I did want to propose a solution to Jimmy Wales about the Odin kind of fiasco here, which was if he's willing to trade Odin gets his own page. We will do everything in our power to remove the co and co-founder from his. I mean, it was like that seems like a fair deal. We'll make a We'll make a bargain, Jimmy. Open invitation, Jimmy. Let me know. DM me. We can figure this out. We can solve this like adults. We'll remove the Cohen co-founder and Gingerville can finally have his page. Okay. Yep. There you go. There you go. I like it. Are we done with blockers? I think so. Yeah. I'm unblocked now. This is the question in which is exploding the internet. Now, I'm positive that my fine co-hosts on Riverside can't actually even see what I have on the page. So, I'll read it just in case. The question that is dividing the internet, red or blue button? I read red and blue backwards, but that's because the image right here says red or blue. It's kind of confusing that it's blue or red and then right here. That does seem like that the AI didn't get the message. So, to put it in here, so let me read the exact tweet. Everyone in the world has to take a private vote by pressing a red or blue button. If more than 50% of people press the blue button, everyone survives. If less than 50% of people press the blue button, only people who press the red button survive. Which button do you press? O. Okay. I want to hear trash straight out the gate. I'm so interested in what trash would Well, I'll tell you how I approach these. I just don't think and I push one. Sick. That's good. There's no point. There's no reason to even think. Y'all just go on Instagram. Boom. Blue. Cuz I hate red. When I grew up, red. So, when I grew up, we would never buy things that were red like uh like a red lighter or get a red car because I would like like if you drove a red car that drove that that brought more attention to you for the cops or something. Okay. So, red's always been like a superstition color. So, I'm just like boom, blue. That's all. That's my thought process there. Good. Trash. Is that really it? So, I just got done reading that potentially half the people on Earth will die. And your your response is because cops will pull over red cars more. I press blue button. I'm going to have to rethink my answer now based on this. That is literally what happened. Am I alive? I'm alive, right? Well, in this you are actually in the risky spot. I love it. Yeah. You're you're you're kind of on a knife stage. Trash. If I die quickly, it's fine. Okay. Okay. I just vanished. There's Yeah, that's a good point. There's a lot of unknowns still in this poll that I would like to know a little more info about. Yeah, but literally always been allergic to red my whole life. That's just how it is. Sorry. All right. Okay. What if they were switched to A or B? Trash, would that affect it at all? Uh, I would pick B cuz my last name starts with B. Boom. trash for having such like a human pivotal answer pull. You have the dumbest reasons I've ever heard for picking either one. It's because it's because these conversations deserve no thought process based. Okay. I I'll take that. So, I'm not going to stress like cuz ultimately it probably means nothing at the end of the day. So, I'm very good at just like, dude, I'm not going to waste my brain cells on this. Boom. Easy answer. True. He's in he's in the queue for Pokemon. He doesn't have time for this. Yeah. bad mood. I didn't get my Pokemon card. That's Yeah, sorry. We'll ask. Lost on the Pokemon queue. So, he's not even in a queue anymore. He's just a little I'm in a bad mood right now. I feel like you have like VP potential trash because someone who's like, "Look, I don't choose red or blue. I have someone else choose red or blue for me." Like like I feel like you have that like a very like down to earth business perspective here. IT'S LIKE IT'S LIKE IF I HAD TIME to think about red versus blue, I wouldn't even, you know, I wouldn't be where I am today. Who cares? Blue. Next question. Honestly, yes. Like I'm very compulsive. Like I'm just like I'm going to do it. I like it. I'm going to do it. All right. So, how many people when they hear red versus blue do you think of Halo? Me. Right here. I That's what I grew up on. So, when I saw red versus blue, when I saw this a first show up, I was just like I like red versus blue. Yep. I think of police immediately. Not saying Pokemon cards. No Pokemon. We can't be driving red cars. Yeah, I have some opinions, but I think someone else should go. Casey, what is your what is your opinions here? Well, this is a tough one because I think if you look at the two. So, so it depends on how much empathy you have, I guess, is what I would say what you're going to pick because as I think we just had demonstrated to us, you know, that a lot of people are going to pick blue for whatever reason. Like that's just a given, right? So, the fact that if the entire world just everyone pushed red, that would be the safest bet because we all know that we would survive and then no one would have to die because we'd all hit red. What we know is a lot of people, including people we like, like trash. Will pick blue for some reason. Hold on. Hold on. Time out. Time out. I think I just zoned out on the on the explanation of red verse blue here. Is it? Yes, we know that. THAT'S WHAT YOU JUST SAID. NO. WAIT. YOU ARE DEAD. You don't get to be a part of this. Hold on. What? Can we go? Can we rewind? Yes, we can. Yeah. Yeah, of course. What's the explanation you're Whatever is talking about, I have no recollection of at all. I have never been more disappointed in you ever because I read it out nicely for you. No, you want to know why I stopped paying attention? cuz you were saying button really weird and I was thinking about calling you out on it and that's all I could think about cuz he was like he was like blue or red button and he said button like that and then as soon as he said button like that I like completely stopped listening and I was like I can't listen to him anymore. What's happening? Understand the Okay. Okay. Read the read the paragraph again. Am I saying button wrong? You said button. You said it like that but then you then you changed it like you said it again. Then you said a normal and then you said button again cuz you're actually you're trying to read really slow. Oh no. Yeah. So anyways, that's all I could think about. So that's literally why I Let me just read it to you again, trash, just in case. Okay. Okay. Read it. Read it. Everyone in the world has to take a private vote by pressing a red or blue button. If more than 50% of people press the blue button, everyone survives. If less than 50% of the people press the blue button, only the people who press the red button survive. Which button would you press? Uh, same answer. It's fine. Oh my god. You don't know. You never know. WHAT DO YOU MEAN YOU NEVER WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? WHAT DOES THAT MEAN? HERE, let me restate the question. Can I restate? To be honest, I stopped listening again and I just kept telling Let me restate the question. Yeah, I could not pay attent if if more people push the blue button, everyone survived. Thanos was right. NO, TRASH. HOLD ON. WAS RIGHT. Just hold on. I can't pay attention to the whole Listen. Listen to my Listen to the sound of my voice. Trash. Yes. Everyone who presses the red button survives in in any scenario. So, if you press the red button, you survive. If you press the blue button, you only survive if more than 50% of the world presses the blue button. That's the question. Which one do you push? Say that again. If you press the red button, you definitely survive always. Okay, that's fine. In all outcomes, if you press the blue button, you only survive if more than 50% of the people in the world press the blue button. Yeah, what's wrong with red? I'm not saying there's ANYTHING WRONG WITH IT. I'm just asking which one you want to push. OH, YOU GUYS MAKING ME FEEL bad for pushing red. Yeah, I'm pushing red. WHAT? WHAT HAPPENED? I THOUGHT YOU WERE PUSHING blue before. Oh, [ __ ] I did pick blue before. WHAT THE OH, YEAH. YEAH, you're right. I COMPLETELY FORGOT. I completely forgot. WHAT'S GOING ON? OKAY. OKAY. I'm like all over the Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We pushing red, dude. I'm not scared. Yeah. You think you were like, "I don't ever push red cuz the cops get me or whatever. THEY'RE GOING TO PULL OVER MY CAR." WHAT HAPPENED? I HAVE NO recollection of me saying that. So, I'm sorry I said it. I'm pushing red. Oh my gosh. You want to know why I kept like uh not listening? It's cuz my AirPods kept switching to my phone. So then I fixed it and then my wife's in the bathroom outside my office and I heard her flush the toilet. So then I started like focusing on that. So I had to but I go red red. Let's go. All right. Thank you. All right. So Casey, in this red versus blue button situation, how how would you proceed? what I was trying to say before but then circumstances they changed have have changed but still the problem with the question right like I said is I think a lot of people will push blue even though the the easiest answer for humanity is everyone pushes red that way you don't have to trust anybody and everyone survives right the problem is a bunch of people will push blue for whatever reason either they're very scared of red like trash Or they might interpret the question in a different way. They might interpret it even if they understand logically what's going on. They might be like, "Which world do I want to live in? Like a high trust world where we're all going to do what's best for everybody or are we going to live in a world where I only do what's best for me?" Right? And so, you know, that to me is the problem is it's like you're kind of asking how much empathy does the person have if they logically understand the question. And then also how much empathy they have for people who don't understand any logic at all because a bunch of people are just going to not have any idea what it means and think that they should push blue for some reason. And all those people are going to die if the the if all the logical people just press red and inflate that number, right? Uh so anyway, so I feel like it's a really hard question for that reason. The obvious answer is just to push red if you're just motivated by self-preservation. Um, and the answer if you're a very like empathetic kind of like just trying to save people who can't save themselves or who are irrationally scared of red because of the cops, uh, then you want to push blue to try and help skew those numbers. I don't honestly know what I would pick in this situation because I'm the kind of person who like would immediately just ask who like what is this button connected to like how did you like like my immediate thought process is like how what is the circumstance like the reason I don't like these things like trolley problems and whatever is I'm like they don't really get at anything about humans because they're so fanciful that they that humans normal process of making decisions such as I need to get my Pokemon cards and my wife flushed the toilet and I don't like the color red. All of which are normal actual strategies for getting through life. They don't work when you have this weird thing that can't possibly exist. Like we don't even know how to build a button that kills only the blue button pushing people. Like that's, you know, we don't have that. Uh, you know, or whatever. So, I would say I don't know. I'd probably push red because I'm too scared that it will end up being red because the logical people will push red. And so I'm just dooming myself to die and not really helping the blue people. But at the same time, maybe that's what the other logical people are thinking, too. So if we all thought something else, we could save the world. I don't know. That's that's all I got. I am I can't believe there were so many thoughts there around. Sorry. Oh, trash. It's been zero thoughts. I read like a thousand different tweets about this. I've been It's been fun hearing everybody's opinions about it. Also, I didn't even think about any of that. What did they say? I just want to let you know we all knew there were zero thoughts going on. I find one of the reasons I find these kinds of things so annoying like the trolley problem uh is just because they just don't tell you anything. Humans don't make decisions by doing like first order boolean logic. That's not like how it works. Maybe Sam Alman. He might, but his company doesn't, right? Like the the AIs he's making are nonlinear, right? You know what I'm saying? So, I just feel like it's so dumb because it's just like it it's it's pretending like you're trying to assess some aspect of human nature when really what you're doing is just purely masturbatory. It has nothing to do with human nature because the way that humans make decisions is a very like like in programming terms it's very floating point. It's very nonlinear. It's very like there's a bunch of things that are all coming together to make decisions. And it's not about like, okay, try to imagine a world in which you're on a trolley. The trolley can't be stopped. You're not normally a trolley operator. You're just somebody who like suddenly is the only person near the trolley controls. YOU CAN SOMEHOW SEE TWO TRACKS ahead of you clearly enough to tell what's on each of them. And you can tell that there's more people on one of the tracks than the other. And you're just like, "Okay." Anyone who's ever been in a situation where [ __ ] got out of control, like a runaway trolley, knows that you are just screaming and like pushing things randomly to try to get it TO STOP. THAT'S WHAT'S actually happening in human nature. Nobody is going like, "Hm, like gosh, what do you g Nigel? What do you see up there on the second track? ARE THERE MORE HUMANS ON THE LEFT ONE OR THE RIGHT ONE? IT'S LIKE THAT'S NOT HAPPENING. But how did they get tied? I WHO TIED them there? Let's find the tying guy. What's going on? Yeah. And like why are we talking about this? So, it's just it's so bad, right? Um All right. Can I jump in for a second? We uh I am reading through some of Twitch chat and there are some people very bothered about us not picking blue. Okay. And the reason being is that uh why would we not want to try to save everybody's life? Well, there's this thing called Darwin. Hey guys, if you like this episode, you can watch the rest of it on the Spotify and don't forget to like and subscribe. Woo! See you later. Boot up the day. V coating errors on my screen. Terminal coffee and living the dream.