The logo design process live - Q&A, sketching & more!

Heat. Heat. Heat. Heat up here. Heat up Flip it out. The intro's ended already. Oh my goodness. What's going on, Dan? What is going on? Hey, everyone. Right. Uh, I always get that feeling like I'm Oh, wait. The microphone's over there. I knew there was something missing. Hello over there. Oh, dear me. Oh, my eyesight without these things is flipping awful. Right. Yes, Liam. Hopefully, he's going to join. Maybe if he's he might be. We just did a PT session and I said we were doing this and I might message him and be like, "Oi, get get on here." Right. Um, yes, the audio is working. How is everyone doing? I'm looking forward to this. We're gonna do a logo today. I'm itching to get back to this. The whole of the the 10 days in Korea was lush, but I was itching to get back to that um photo manipulation thing. Uh, and now we're going to do a logo. I've not done a logo in forever. This is the before and after. So, if you joined the last stream, this is the before and after of how this turned out in the end. So, very very similar to the what you might have seen on the stream, but then just a a little bit of color rebalancing there to make it a bit more blue, less yellow, and a bit more green. So, if you haven't seen this, this turned out pretty well. That was where we started the last stream, and that's more or less where we ended it with our character and our wolf, bird, raven, griffin thing, whatever it is. So, uh, yeah, really happy with that. That turned out pretty darn well. And now we're going to switch up and go back to logos. Turu Tusmu from Morocco. Hello. Welcome. Hopefully you enjoy this and don't think it's terrible. Hey, Christopher. Yeah, I know. I'm I'm uh I'm definitely an Adobe guy. I've been using Adobe stuff for like years now. started Photoshop 7 when I was like 17. I still get really nostalgic when I think about that now. Sat in my bedroom on my little my little laptop. Oh man, I' I've got the work that I I used to do graphic design work when I was 17. Uh, but it was it was for people, but it was for like online websites doing like forum signature banners and pages for their profiles and stuff. And I used to charge like fake currency for the platform. All this stuff, but we need to go into that someday because that'll be uh fun to unear that. Definitely got them in a folder somewhere. Yes, we do need Liam. We need to all think about Liam now and just inside cry out and maybe he will grace us with his presence. So um well anyway who who the hell's Liam and what are you rambling about Dan? So Liam Liam Cleaves is my good friend and PT. He's an excellent personal trainer, a fantastic friend and an all round lovely sausage. And he's got a logo. He's got a logo. Runs his business. Um, but he's really interesting because he's, as long as I've known him, he's never just been just a PT. You know, a lot of PTs are um just you hire a PT, you do your session, blah blah blah. Liam's always been someone who gives a [ __ ] He's always cared. I've always felt that from him that it's more than just let's do our hour, lift some weights, and then see you later. So Liam is Liam is lush basically. And I started redesigning his logo ages ago just for fun. He doesn't want it, doesn't need it, but I started doing it for fun. And I've just never been able to fully shake this idea that I really, really, really, really want to have a crack at the logo of someone who I really admire. so I asked him the other day, mate, I was like, mate, will you fill out this questionnaire? You don't have to use this at all, but I just really I've got that itch for a uh like a fun project, no sort of pressure or anything because I've got a lot of other stuff going on. But I thought it'd be a really really good one to take someone who is a PT but is not just a PT and then see what his answers were and then try and turn that into a new logo and then kind of build it out into a visual identity and blah blah blah. So Liam very kindly filled out the questionnaire. You're not a fan of the heart with a heartbeat. And uh we have some answers and they're very interesting and they're very telling as well. And they do actually link back. This logo whether you like it or not does make sense in relation to these answers. Now I always look at a logo and I think I would love to have a crack at that. I think I could do something maybe better. I would hope I would hope so. Um, but even just going through this, reading this, and sketching ideas, like I just love to just throw myself into it, and we'll start we'll start sketching ideas. Yes. Okay. Right. So, we're going to go through this super quickly and then I'll show you how I would typically approach something like this because we can How do I zoom in? There we go. We can take you can actually gleam a lot from the answers that someone gives. And if you don't have a questionnaire and you don't ask at least some of these questions up front, hey Raquel, you're going to you're going to make your life considerably harder and it makes the whole process with the client a lot more challenging as well because you're essentially you know you're trying to design a logo for someone or maybe a brand identity, whatever it is, but you're not armed with any information. And this information is pretty crucial as you'll see in a minute. Liam is not not like every other PT. And if you did a logo with, you know, a big bicep flexing or something like that or the colors maybe were like rack rack and bled black and red or black and yellow, it isn't going to necessarily fit what Liam is about. So, we're going to go through this. So what is your business name and the meaning behind it? It's obviously quite important to understand the name. So the name is Liam Clees Training. The meaning is to the meaning behind the name is simply it will always be a personal service from no one other than myself. So Liam's not looking to expand. He is the guy. If I would ever employ another person, the name would change as it wouldn't reflect what that name means anymore. Yeah. Okay, that makes sense. And we're going to go through this and we're actually going to circle a bunch of stuff. And oh, my tablet's not even set up properly. It's a good start, isn't it, Dan? Yeah. So, we're going to go through and we're going to we're going to circle these. And this is will lead into the next part of the process as well. Poppy, tell them to stop saying PT. Why can't I say PT? Poppy. Poppy's not there, mate. You're not going to get any support from Poppy. Hello, CRZA. Uh, what was I doing? Yes. Right. Let's get this thing working because it's going to make my life harder or easier depending on if I've set it up correctly. Nice. Right. And we're going to get some Let's try this epic electro. Right. So, we're going to go through and we're going to Well, we could circle. Actually, let's just mark it up. So, just make a new layer. Pick a nice punchy color. We'll go with what? Orange. Yeah, let's go with orange. We'll set the blending mode to multiply. And a brush with all the hardness up. And we should be able to do this now. So, we're going to go through and we're going to highlight the bits that stand out to us. Now when you go through this with your own client, different words will stand out. You'll get very different answers of course, but that will feed into the next step as well. So D obviously that's the name. Might as well highlight that will always be a personal service. So that is very important D. Right. What is the business purpose? to provide value to people's lives to improve their quality of life by feeling the best they can in their own skin. So out of this what should we what should we highlight improve quality of life feeling feeling the best. So they want to feel good basically. adjectives to describe your business. Supportive, honest, real, educated. I mean, it's usually always worth highlighting all of these. We can lean into one or the other. It doesn't matter, but they're all relevant for now, right? Ideal client is someone looking to achieve something real within themselves. Again, real real. You see, this is what people do when they fill out these questionnaires. Usually, they're very honest. They just write what comes to their mind. But you'll find that sometimes they'll use words over and over again. And those words when they keep using those same words, we can latch on to that. There's obviously some sort of significance or important and a reason that they keep using that word. So something real, something maybe, well, how do you visually represent real? tangible, quantifiable, human, I don't know, within themselves. Someone who is needing that boost in life, right? So, we're looking to achieve. We'll do boost. Oh, bloody adverts. Go away. You get into like a good song and then a flipping ad comes on. It's just so rubbish. What should I listen to? Oh, I need some good music. I need some good music. I need like a Unless you roll the dice on Apple Music. hot songs. So, let's give this a go. See if it's not terrible. Right. Boost in life, which can be measured across things such as happiness, hope, performance, and confidence. So, again, lots more keywords here. We're going to highlight all of them. What makes your business unique? Again, very important. I genuinely care. That's pretty important. Life isn't black and white and things that sound easy for some people can be very hard for others to put into real life practice. Okay. So, not a one-sizefits-all. Empathy. Empathy and passion is unique. What does your business provide? We can highlight all of these now, but obviously we're not going to. You can if if you have an idea already in your head, you can lean into some more than others. Like for example, I might get rid of passion because I don't think that's necessarily it doesn't really fit within everything else that's being said here. here. I feel like there's a common thread with this and passions. It feels a bit separate. Oh god, this this music is awful. Oh, yes, Greg. Please. Let's just try I'll try anything. I just don't know what I feel like. I like stuff with like a What was I listening to the other day? I was listening to something really cool. I cannot remember where I flipping heard it. Ah, a bit of inflamed. That's a safe bet, right? Who are your competitors? Other local PTs and online. Okay. Big goals. How do you want to expand in future? Transition online at some point. Okay. I mean, Liam Liam's sort of online already in terms of Instagram and everything. Um, I don't know if that means transitioning more of the business online, so it's not just PTS, but will your logo primarily be used? Clothing, social media, color preferences, obviously leaning into the current logo, but we could we could revisit that. I think they are good color choices. Maybe we lean more into one than the other. Maybe we pick something else. Don't think black is a very inviting color. Yeah, I would agree with that. I don't think like block black backgrounds and things would necessarily be good. Maybe not even the logo itself. Uh do you have a preference on typography? I don't. That's fine. And I I wouldn't expect everyone to have even thought about that. Yeah. Mission statement is the same. My services will be supportive. We got some more good keywords here. Understanding and welcoming. I'm not looking to train hardcore Mr. Olympia. Again, very important. Who we're not targeting. I'm looking to improve the lives of people that need it most. Again, there's that word again. We've got uh improve their quality of life, improve the lives of people. So, we've got lots of threads there that we can pull on. So, that's really cool. Let's move this over. Oh, bugger. Hang on. Let's put that on on its own layer. There we go. We'll pop that up there. And then we're just going to quickly start mapping out some ideas, doing a bit of brainstorming because I'll be honest, I want to get into the sketching. It's a fun bit. Uh, current Lego. Start recording my screen in case some magic happens. so what we can do now is we can take some of these keywords and we can start to actually map these out. You have to excuse my awful handwriting. So we're going to stick some of these keywords in bubbles. We want to find the ones that threads that are being repeated. So, all right. Performance. That's something that's come up twice. So, we're going to have uh actually, no, let's let's not write this down. Let's let's just we'll type these because your handwriting is highly questionable. So, we've got performance. We'll do a few more. What other ones do you think would be good based on what we've covered? Fitness, health, achievement, improve Q, quality of life. Let's just write it for anyone who joins. Quality of life. That I think that's a big one. That's probably more important than performance. It helps that I know Liam as well. And we've talked about this. And if you have like um a discovery call with your client, you can dig into some of this a bit more and ask them and just get to know them and their business a lot more, which is good. It's not It's not It's not Yeah. genuinely care. I was going to say it's not like repeated over and over and over, but caring. Genuine caring. Oh, you legend. Thank you so much, XM Techch. Oh my goodness. Thank you so much. Wow. Oh, you're absolute legend. Hey, Gorav, how's it going? Yeah. So, genuine caring. And then what else? Performance. I'm going to I'm going to put performance boost or performance. What other one? We got one more. I'm not going to do too many obviously health and health and fitness. I mean, maybe actually we just put health and fitness because this isn't necessarily too PT specific. So maybe health and fitness is actually a good one to to have in there. We can kind of shoot off of that. All right, let's go and scatter these around. We'll give them plenty of space, actually. All right. And let's do a nice big bubble around each. Just a heads up, this this ain't going to look pretty. It's not going to look pretty. what sort of things come to mind? Whether it's word association, visuals, icons, what? Just anything. We're going to throw things down. So, performance boost. I'm thinking like arrows. I told you it's awful writing. Arrows. Uh, improve quality of life. Improve quality of life. Genuine caring. Quality. I don't I'm going to put I'm going to put heart. Um, genuine caring. How do you show you care? Hold hold holding. So whether it's holding a hand or holding somebody or Yes, exactly. K. Yeah, we're just going to what comes to mind. So, health and fitness obviously. weights, even if we don't heavily lean into that, it's we're just we're still brainstorming at the minute. Totally wide open everything on the table. Fitness perform. And if we could find things that connect multiple threads here. So let's say we write down blah blah blah and it's like oh actually this connects to this might be a really good direction to go in. So we're sort of trying to set everything up before we start sketching random ideas. And as you start to make these connections as well sometimes that itself can spawn creative ideas performance boost. I'm thinking of like a shoe uh like on a starting block like a trainer kind of lifting up. Um shoe slash Oh my god, my writing. I switch between joined up letters and not. It's flipping awful. Um shoe trainer but specifically on a starting block. That could be really cool actually. I love that. could be a little bit too athlete maybe. But I don't know, maybe we could have like a little little stick man, a little Liam holding up the shoe, genuine caring, improve quality of life. And by the way, if you if you have chat GBT, you can go and you could chuck all this in AI and go give me a list of ideas. That is probably one way that you could speed up your logo process, get a bunch of ideas to springboard you in different directions without um taking too much like away from the creativity, the actual fun bit of the logo. Sometimes it could be quite good to speed up those parts of the process and or give yourself a little bit of a boost, but then you enable you to spend more time on the actual the I call it the fun bit. The bit I want to do anyway. Health and fitness. Uh right, we could do food. Anyone got any other ideas? performance boost, improve quality of life. A plan, some sort of plan, improve quality of life. A goal goal. not sure how to represent that. Not necessarily a target crosshair or that might look a little bit like Liam's rifle shooting club. We want to avoid that. A rocket. Yes. Um, performance performance boost, improve quality of life. You could connect that between You could connect that between both of them. The same with the arrows. Actually, the rocket could be in terms of style. I think it's probably going to have more rounded corners. If we have squared off corners and everything's too sharp, it could look a bit serious, a bit corporate. This needs to be friendly, approachable, warm. which kind of fits in with a lot of this as well, the genuine caring side, the personal service. but we don't want it to look too playful. We could easily do a rocket and it look too childish. yeah. But yeah, it's a cool idea. Come on, Andrea. What you got? What you got for me? We've got We need some more ideas. Genuine caring grow. Yes. There you go. You sneaky sausage. You were holding on to that one. Come on. You got some more, Raquel. What have you got? I feel like K's got one as well. Grow. I like that. Yeah, grow arrows performance progress. progress. I do feel if I if if you said gun to my head right now, which direction are you going to go? I think it is going to be this area. I feel like the sort of typical health and fitness thing doesn't really lean into what makes Liam unique. I think it's definitely this top top half, but we'll see. Heart. I mean, I think his logo makes a bit more sense now, you know, like I said, whether you like it or not. the heart for what he does, training people, sorry, the weights for training people, the heart for that, like I actually care. And then the You can sort of see why what was written here where that did feed into this logo. It's not just like a typical like, you know, a lot of gym logos can be very just weights and I don't know. Yeah, it just it does look a bit different. It does stand out. A sausage has gone missing. So an object hung up with some like cyber punk. store music on. I saw a synth wave. It's from Peep Show. Oh my god, that went over my head. I've not seen that in so long. Love David Mitchell. So funny. Hey, Carl. quality of life. Maybe you could do a graph, but or maybe just even upwards. Might be a bit vague. Performance boost. You could do bicep, but I think we're just we're going to lean away from that. What other ways can you represent performance? Like a a plus, a plus symbol, plus++ genuine caring. This one's a little bit trickier as well. Art holding I mean, you could say smile, but I don't know. Big not sure. A big smiley face. Sustain. That's a good one. I'm also sort of trying to think visually about how some of these could be represented. any for genuine caring. I feel like there's probably some some more there. Poppy would be uh would be good at that. Poppy's definitely more more caring than me. I I try and be caring. Poppy is just naturally just a big ray of flipping sunshine, genuine, caring, real. could you put authentic? Real, authentic, genuine. Let me just quite hard to visually how could you visually show caring? Let's use a bit of um GPT. Actually, we'll use it for this specific bit. So, uh, I'm brainstorming ideas for a logo. I have a bubble. Genuine. What did I put? I've forgotten already. genuine caring brackets about PT glance just so it's got that context. Um, what ideas could shoot off of that? Let's see what it says. Hug. Yes. Uh, I think that's kind of what I meant by hold it. I'm holding put holding slashhug just send it the client brief. All right. Well, yeah, we'll do that in a we'll do that in a minute. We'll do that in a minute. Lift. That's interesting. Support. Lift. Guidance. Oh, yeah. Support. That's such an obvious one. How did we not think of that? Guidance. Okay. Okay. So, her guide guidance and then arrows. I'm not going to do it, but we could. It gets a bit messy, but yeah, arrows could connect to guidance. Upwards could connect to guidance. So, do something. That's an arrow. This is interesting. You obviously whether you ask for it or not, you get the breakdown of why why it works. Caring is action, not emotion. And this shows it. Yeah. Obviously, take all of this with a grain of salt, but lift again. lift the [ __ ] is that some drilling going on next door or something? Did you hear that? I think I think lift is probably or lift up is probably a bit more relevant than levitating. Yeah, some drilling going on. Ryan says the first thing that comes to mind for caring is the hand overhand almost like a handshake about to happen that a lot of medical places use. Okay. hand overhand. What sort of so weird I do actually have an icon I think that I made a while ago that is a heart shape and it's something like this. You guys might have seen it. Obviously this is going to look hilariously bad. But it is this is this it's meant to be a hand. Oh no, he's got God. Yeah, obviously there's no thumbs. No thumbs present. But yeah, I did do a that that looks like someone grabbing someone's wrist. But yes, it was a heart with two hands. Can you hear that, Andrea? Lifting support seems to be the feel with those. Just show us the old hound dog you're obviously hiding. Which hound dog is that? What? The icon. Uh. Oh god. Am I gonna find it? Oh god. I mean, it was on a stream from like Unless it's in my rebrand document. solo. Aha, got it. Or got a version of it. The line width is a bit weird. Where are you? There you are. That is really annoying. Yeah, they're they're drilling next door. Of course, obviously when I start this decide to do a stream, they're like, I'm just going to drill into the wall. So, I don't know. Um I mean, we'll chuck We'll chuck it in the illustrator document. We're not quite there yet, but that's uh terrible version of it. But yes. Oh, sorry, Greg. I'm with you. I'm with you. Yeah, that I mean that that is really nice. Um it's more of an icon and I don't know if it necessarily relates to the fitness side of it enough, but I don't know, maybe there's something we could use from there. Maybe we could turn that into something. the whole hand shaking kind of thing. I think we got some pretty good ideas there, right? What sort of common threads are? In fact, let's um do another layer. Right. So, some of these uh rather than just have all of this in front of us, let's try and pin down some sort of direction. What are the best words here? If we were going to focus on some ideas and we'll start sketching in a sec. What are the ones that have the most potential? Well, it could be Carrie. Yeah, Poppy could be just drilling into the the support. And and remember, we're not just thinking about icons. We're not just thinking, oh, let's do a support icon. You know, we could do a monogram. We could just have L and C and we could combine them in interest in an interesting way. But we these words that we're going to highlight, we want the logo to really evoke a lot of this. So because all of these um these words and related words and associations are all coming from this brief. So if we kind of build what we're highlighting here into the logo, it should fit the brief. Hopefully that's the plan Lift also has to do with fitness. Yes, that is very true. You're right. That's progress or growth. They could it could be either of those. Some sort of progression. And at the moment, I'm just looking at these and thinking, what where do I want to really start with these? Like, if I could only highlight a few of these and try and capture a logo, what are the ones that best describe what Liam does? Hey Paul, how's it going? I'm toying between Oh, whoops. Performance arrows. Some of these like rocket and shoe trainer are more specific. We'll do performance. Trust. I didn't Yeah, we didn't even add that. Trust is actually a very good one. That's a really good one, actually. Let's go back and add that. I'm not even sure where we would which one would that come under. Probably maybe all of them actually trust. Oh, that's a that's a better weight, isn't it? And maybe actually that connects to all of them. See, this is quite an important word actually. Sorry, I should have used this sticker weight before. It's a lot easier to see. Having the right support as well. So, trustworthy support. Yeah, maybe progression support and hope. Yes. Um, improve quality of life. I'm going to put hope under there. I mean, you again, you could fit that into other ones as well. Accountability. Yes. Where we going to put that one? Genuine care. Or actually, that could fit in a lot of ones as well. So sorry about the noise. Yes, walking in nature can do wonders. Personal trainer. Motivation. Motivation. Motivation. Nice. Oh, these are really good. Yeah, and Liam is very motivating. In fact, actually, I can show you something that probably show you a little bit more of who Liam is. So, if I find it. So, this is this is something that I recorded and edited with Liam and Shauna. Um, Shauna is one of his clients. And this is why Liam's such a lush, lovely sausage. Um, because he's I was just thinking about this as we're writing these words down. So basically, he's encouraged someone called Shauna to run her first 10K next month. And before she sort of didn't think she could do 1K, and he's got her running like I think 7K at the minute, and she's got the event next month. and I'll just I'll just link the video. Yeah, we've got guidance, knowledge. We could add that as well. Inspirational. I'll put that on there. Inspo. and this is the video is something that him and Shauna, his client, are doing for Shauna's mom. Uh, if anyone does want to donate, by the way, like that would be amazing. They've already surpassed their goal, but it's um it's all for Shauna's mom. And uh we had had a lot of fun filming that. It was good. It was really good. They're both not used to being in front of the camera like that. So I was just I was dying when I was recording it cuz I was like, "Oh, this is so nice being on the other side of the camera for a change. Just get to laugh at everyone else." Um but yes, as we were doing this, I was just thinking Liam is very motivational. I mean, you'll see in the video, he genuinely does care. He's supporting Shauna in what she wants to do, but also keeping her accountable with doing the running and the prep that will lead up to the 10K and then giving her that push and that support as well. and he just does it because you know because he just he wants to you know there is um no uh no other ulterior motive or anything. So I think that that is very important with within this laughter aspirational empowerment. Yes, empowerment. I think that would be what improve quality of life. power meant. Hey pops. Yes, it is. It's It's a very good cause. It's a very good cause. It's for Shauna's mom who's um she struggled with two different types of cancer and then after partly recovering from one of them ended up having a stroke and she's absolutely been through the ringer by the sounds of it. It's so this is to support her and her recovery and just help improve her quality of life. Poppy, obviously the neighbors decided to start drilling into the bloody wall when I'm streaming, right? Yeah, that was my first thought as well. Oh, that and a few choice words definitely went through my head. Oh dear, I'm probably yelling. They can probably hear everything I'm saying. All right, I want to start sketching some stuff. We could sit here and we could stare at this all day. And uh obviously we're just we're speed running the entire process here, but let's get to the good stuff. So we got some we got the brief, we got some ideas. These are going to be very useful to refer back to. So we'll just dump that in a folder and call it prep. And then make a new layer. And uh I've got no idea what I'm going to do here. I actually have no idea, no plan. If anyone does want to throw some into the ring as well, you can email them to [email protected] or chuck them in the Discord. Put it as a hound dog. No, it's some drilling. Finding it difficult to design my own logo. Ah, well, if you're if you're stuck on the sketching and ideation part, hopefully this next bit will help. or um it'll go terribly and it won't help. But hopefully hopefully it'll be good. Oh, did she what? My mom came round. Oh, she snuck round. Unannounced. Had no idea. I don't believe that, Pops. I just don't believe it. Right. Anyway, I'm going to have to try and put the uh banging from Next Door up my head. And actually, let's crank up the music. There we go. Yeah. Right. Whatever. Okay, I got to put my brain into it's No, at least I'm not recording. Yeah, I'll show. In fact, I will I will rep up the logo I did before for Liam ages ago. It was more just mucking around, but uh oh well, there's quite a lot of mucking around. Some of these ideas I did really like the L and the C. That's flipping good idea. There was about progression. So, I really did like the whole monogram style leaning. It's quite a nice lock up as well. Bit simplistic. Yeah, I really liked this one actually. the had the L and then the C. I thought that was really clever. What else? Oh yeah, loads of loads of ideas. I did some typeled stuff which is fine. Like it works, but I don't know. I think some of these ideas were a bit bit more creative. Liam with the blue A. Well, this one, not sure. Yeah, this was I think this was the final one that I landed on. I did really like this. Combining an L and a C is very, very difficult. And you're sort of almost taking out the missing piece. Yeah, I quite liked this one. This was very a good representation of progression. Everything seems to be italicized here. So, I don't know. Maybe some of these ideas come back out to play. Maybe not. What? What even was the font? What's the font here? Oh, Coralev. I do like that font. You can see a lot of these are really leaning into the name as well. And I do like the idea about there being like a simplified mark. God, I forgot I've done so much work on this. This is actually a really good font. Monserat. Yeah. So, some cool ideas. Oh, a child has returned. Hello, child. Hi. So, sketching out I mean L and C when you're doing a monogram, it's actually quite difficult to combine L and C together. because they don't naturally like connect and obviously we've got these other aspects as well. So support they've got to get into ideiation mode. Now I have a question. How to bring creative ideas? I'm new to this. I think um I would start I would watch the stream again from the beginning a bit later. We do go through this. This is all like super important. You don't want to skip any of this process, especially not the questionnaire, because the highlighted keywords lead to all this fluff here, which is going to lead into the sketches. But right now, we're just going to start sketching some ideas. I need to switch my brain into idea mode. It's definitely harder streaming, but we'll see. So, and if you're not sure, just just start doing something. just, you know, you're going to you're going to see a lot of terrible ideas before we land on something decent. Howdy. We got arrows. We got arrows going up. Maybe some sort of curve progression maybe. Hello. Let me do an L as an arrow. Well, you got different types of C as well. You could do like a squared one. You could do a very rounded one. You could do one that is a little bit of both. progression. We could stack the letters on top of each other. Um I think what what did I do before? I had them at like an angle. So like this. So you got your your L and your C. So bloody annoying. LNC into one like LG. Yeah, LNC is quite tricky to combine the leg of the L supporting the C. Yeah. So like this. Yeah, you could do something like that. Break the upper line of the L. Make it an arrow inside to make an itallic C. You might have to mock that one up. L and C to shape a heart. Don't think that's going to work. You could reverse the C, but then it becomes a little bit a little bit harder. It's a bit more abstract. How? Let's see. Support growth. And we're going to constantly refer back to this as well. Performance boost caring. Let's do a heart anyway. Don't know motivation progression support progression. So you could have blocks going up. If we could have like a wedge showing progress. Liam Cle's training. What about like a T and then a plus in there? LCT. No, I feel like you end up looking a little bit like uh see like a lot of construction companies or builders will have like their abbreviations that will be like DMG construction or something. I don't think having the the letters is quite the right play. LCT. Yeah, this is what I mean. So like the C flows into the T, so you can do some pretty cool things. But L and C definitely going to have to think a bit more outside the box. You see what I mean? You're going to sketch lots of things that you don't don't like and that are awful. But that's fine. Sometimes just doing something is better than nothing. What about um arrows? showing a progression support quality of Could we do it's more like a G? Maybe Liam Gleeves. We could change his name. What about the C hanging off the L? Oh, right. Okay. Something like this. Wonder if you can just bridge that connection. Oh, no. It looks like an E. Then unless we bring bring the C down. You got L and C. You could do something a bit more handwritten then. So like have the L go up. got the L and the C together maybe. And then I don't know, maybe in here there's a plus. I'm not sure. Or a gap. Maybe the C just comes lower. No, it looks less like a C then. It's got to still look like a C. Liam and Cleaves. So you get it in like a symbol simple mark. So it looks like an L and a C. What do you reckon? Yeah, that looks nice. Yeah, I feel like I did something like that in the old file. I did that. I know he doesn't like this sort of stuff. It's too minimal. He said that to me earlier cuz I was like, "What sort of logos do you like?" It didn't really have too much of a preference. But something that's just abstract with no text, no context, like a really simplified symbol like this. This is too simple for him. I think Queens Park Rangers. Let's have a look. Oh, I see what you mean. We're interlinking. I think it would be more modern. I mean, if we if we did do something a bit more like a little bit more embellished. They got your L. It leads into the C. We could do something like that, I suppose. Then you have that running around over the top. So, I'm a little bit more in the direction of a crest. We really are. We're pushing our I mean it's almost like kind of Liam is the taking the letter C under his wing almost a little bit. I don't know if it's quite right but interesting to explore. Anyway, another thing you can do as well is get different fonts and just type L and C and scroll through loads of fonts. In fact, let's just do it now actually just for for fun. So not and L and C and then we'll do a lowercase one as well and just go through some fonts and see how the letter these letters can be represented with different type faces. So let's Yeah, like even this one here, you know, you could look at that and you could do something a lot thinner and then have the C in there and it's quite I mean obviously this is looks very blocky If we go and build this out into an idea with a bit of weight to it. Oops, I've really messed up the width on this, but yeah, you get the idea. LC, which you could I mean maybe we could lean into the idea of support there. The like someone said earlier I think a few people might said the L is supporting the C. So it kind of ties it back into lift up support Hey man, how's it going? LC, put the C on the same line as the L. How do you mean what? Just LC like that. Trying to think a little bit more outside the box than that. This one. I don't think I even explored this before. Let's try and do like a slightly larger version of this. We get a little bit more detail in it. And then we'll go and do the C. Actually, let's try and fit this into a square. So, we're just going to try and eyeball very rough square. And then what have we got? So, something going to make the C wider. So if we do the L here, we can do something like this. Bring the L down. Goes across. So there's our L. There's the C. I don't know why I always gravitated to this this monogram style even before. But it's good to even explore these ideas now and have that sort of knowledge from the questionnaire and the other aspects that kind of underpin it rather than just let's combine an L and a C and make something that looks good. This feels like it it's going to have a bit more purpose. sits quite nicely in a square but like I said earlier too too serious at the minute. Imagine a cap lock E but with erase the horizontal erase the horizontal line of the E there will be a mini LC. So, a capital E. Let's do this. Me erase the horizontal line. Let's try that again. Dan, what? My erase tool not working. Oh no, I pressed something. Look at that. Can't see anything now. God s Yeah, I think so. I'm just going to reboot Photoshop. I think I might press something or whatever. Sometimes I do that. I'll press like a keyboard shortcut combination then activate. Oh, if quick masking mode and I press Q sometimes. If you join the Discord, if you go to dance Oh, uh dance.com, scroll down and find the community. You can join the Discord for free or just send an uh if you don't want to do that. Um, that's our community. If you want to just email it to me, send it to that and I'll pick it up. There you go. Why have you opened Adobe All right. What do we get to? Try connecting the base of the L to the C like a liature. Here we go. Right. I think that was what uh Sevil Resire Joyce said, "Try connecting the base of the L to the C." Oh, well, I see what you mean. Like L and Do you mean like this? Then if we try it with another font, it's giving me fish hook vibes. A little bit fish hook. But you can see there's there are ways we can link this stuff together. We got a flower. This looks a bit corporate at the minute. But I wonder if we could refine that. Some more rounded edges. bit different. I don't know if that style just not not modern enough. I feel like doing something cursive isn't necessarily going to be the right play. I mean, it would be it would look we could do something like that. Looks cool. But unless we did might be a little bit too too fancy. What about if we did it like a triangle? It's almost a triangle there. So if we map that down there, map that down there. Do it as an L. And then have this. So three triangles. And then we use that to try and No. Yeah, it doesn't. It's a bit less my style as well. The only other thing that um my style is very much monoline, so it wouldn't have to necessarily be cursive. This could be adapted in some way, perhaps made a bit more geometric. Obviously, this is nonsense. Check Discord. got there. Oh, wow. That's amazing. This is really cool. Check this out. This is what Andrea just sent me. Uh, yeah. Really nice combination of the L and the C. That's cool. I like that. You could do something monoline. I don't know. Give me a break. Rumble mix two concepts cuz this is not about exercise only. It's about feeling good with ourselves. Yeah, I love monoline logos. So, I think that's why I ended up doing that this one progression style. I just love that sort of style generally shield style. Could you do a an L? That looks No, my brain's not working. Then uh sketching on um in Photoshop with an artist XP Pen Artist Pro 16TP. Oh, that's interesting. An L and a C. What if I explore that? Um, no. It's not going to work like Is it L? No. It needs to be a bit more condensed. So, if I do a condensed C, let me cut it off at the same leaning into my style a little bit more and a bit more modern. And you could do one half orange, one half blue. And this one is a bit like impact. Very condensed. The L inside the sea. God, these ideas are great. Depends what type of C you do as well. Determines if the L inside the C would even work. What are you giggling at? Drawing stuff. You're You're drawing stuff. What? A Liam logo? No. Oh, just drawing in general. What are you drawing? I want to see. Oh my goodness. Hello, sausage. Sorry, intermission. Crumble needs his moment in the spotlight. Yes, Paul. That's Poppy. Are you all right, Sausage? Have you had a hard day doing nothing? Oh dear. I know. It's hard life, isn't it? You poor little thing. Looking at me. I don't know what he's thinking. Are you thinking why am I upside down or is this just normal for you? Oh, yes. He is a baby. He's a little baby, aren't you? Big goosebury. You hear him cooing like a pigeon. It's adorable. Adorable. He sometimes goes really high pitched when he's happy and he goes Curved narrow fonts may be one way to go with. Yeah, it's tricky, especially if you're trying to combine the L and the C. It's tricky. It's tricky trying to find the style as well. I feel like from chatting to him earlier, I feel like he's he'd be up for something more modern. And I think it's a good fit for my style, but not too minimal because when it gets too minimal, I think that's not really up his street. Trustworthy accountability progress. Oh, what's the other idea I had? Let's type It's a bit This is a bit random and a bit different. It's a bit different. Not entirely sure how you Fit cleaves in there. Cleaves. I don't know. Come out of box design. No matter how much you try, it matches some other designs. What do you do about that? Uh, I think time time is is important as well. Like none of these none of these so far. I mean, I like I like this one, but I don't know if it's the right sort of fit. None of these are really setting my world on fire, but you know, we not been doing it for long. So, sent I did your email. Oh, okay. Go on then. Let's have a look. Okay, I see I see what you're going for. So, look. Let's paste this in. I think you run the risk of it looking a bit too much like a B if it's joined. But I see what you mean. like putting the L and the C together. That doesn't look like anything now. I don't know what I'm doing there. I think part of it as well is sometimes you just sometimes ideas come quickly, sometimes they really don't and you just got to keep going until you get that aha kind of idea like I don't know about um other people who do logos, but do you get like that kind of aha feeling, you know, sort of a almost instinctual feeling that this is a cool idea? and that you want to explore it. That's sort of what I'm looking for. what about progress? Progress. Could we do like a batter L wedge? Or we just focus on the C and we just go for a letter mark instead of a monogram. Yeah, like Superman. It's just got the giant S. Maybe we just lean into the C. And then obviously alongside you'd have, you know, Liam Cle's training or whatever. There's a nice sort of horizontal symmetry. Yeah, there is some sort of do like this. And this is why I explored this idea before as well, cuz you can make it look like an L and a C at the same time. Um, I sometimes use the iPad. Uh, obviously, but yeah, if I'm doing it properly for a project, I will usually sit on the com on the sofa, get comfy, proper comfy with the iPad. Um, but when I'm sat here like doing it live at my desk, I'm using a pen display. I like that, too. Oh, which one? Which one do you like? I get to the sort of I'm cooking something but then fumble when I start sketching or vectorizing my sketch. Oh, no. I think the vectorzing part is probably like the easier part once you know the once you know a little bit of Illustrator and it's more the processes Once you know the the basic tools, got a solid understanding of how to use them, and a good process for the type of logo that you want to vectorize, it's quite straightforward. I don't know if we'll get to it today, but you'll probably see when we carry this on. Once the idea is good in Photoshop and we're like, "Oh, yeah, this sketch here, this is the one." The actual vector process is, "Oh, I've got these shapes now. I need to create them. What tools do I use to get the best result? Coming up with a clever idea is definitely infinitely harder. Um, speaking of Superman, let's do a just for fun, let's do a Superman. Oh, I love that. They're not not necessarily relevant at all, but why not? Oh, yeah. No, I think it's awesome. Andrea's logo is this one. I just don't know if the style all this stuff up here as well is the right style. Wonder if there's a way we could geometricify it. Don't know. No, not all those. It's always worth jumping back to the brief as well. We've not really done any uh research on other logos or anything. I mean, let's let's go and do that spark some ideas. I wouldn't what I wouldn't do is necessarily straight off the bat type LC logo just because I don't want to have other designs in my head. So, let's type support icon. Icons can be very useful because they're not logos, but they are ways that things or actions or concepts are represented. This is cool. Yeah, this So, you might look at that and then the inspiration might be, oh, we'll do something like that. just simplify the a gesture. Let's type C letter mark. Mhm. Yeah. See, this is cool. Totally different. But we could then explore hexagons. So we could do like a hexagonal. Let us see. I think we're probably going to stay away from kettle bells or dumbbells unless we can get it in a way that's subtle that does kind of lean into more of this sort of stuff supporting progression. Like for example, if I were going to do a progression with just weights, you know, you could have the weights stacked like this or stacked up like that. And these could be weights, but they also show progress. Then you could have the Olympic bar going through them. Or you could have the weights like this. This is going a bit too Olympic lifter which is what we don't want but you see how that just became like progression like a level up progression to oh, let's do a letter L in this acute arrow like style. So even if something's not totally relevant, it can still kind of lean into something uh lead into something else. Go. Oh, arrow. Well, that did kind of tie into what we were doing before. I wonder if I could do a backward See, this is one of those ones where could you get away with a backwards C. It's not really going to look like a C, is it? Unless I did something like that. yeah, know the arrow spec. What? and we got diamond. This is interesting. It's like the the shoe idea. Nice, Roco. slightly different style, but I like the chunky letters. Yeah. See, I don't want to just do L and C. Like, it could be a really nice mell, but I want it to be more than that. I always like to try and have some sort of hidden meaning or link back to the values, you know, like this one here, this represented the journey. Um, this one up here was you had the L and the C and this was almost like the Slightly different vibe here with the with the white on black, but in fact, actually, I've got a good idea. It's a bit generic, but let's type in um fitness icons. Yeah, we've got a shoe there. Kettle bell. What about kettle bell as a heart? Or is that a terrible idea? Feel like I feel like I've it's been done, but let's sketch it anyway. Oh, wait. No, that's not the top of a kettle bell, is it? These are good as um reference images as well. Cattlebell. Even if you think something's terrible, sketch it anyway because you never know what it'll springboard off to. That is a one lopsided wonky ass heart representing the journey. I like the idea of the monol line that doubles as an arrow and have it end higher than where it started. Also shows the line of progression isn't linear. Yes, that's true. There was one idea I did have just sort of leaning into that a little bit. Um, in Liam's current logo, he's got the the heartbeat monitor. Another idea I had was to show the instead of the heartbeat was to show the journey, which would be a bit more curvy, which looks like a chocolatecovered heart now, but Yeah. Or it could just quit quite quick. Just just do a squiggle. There's your Lego. There is something with Liam actually. He's very very very good at quickly fixing a Rubik's cube. He's a genius. Hey, he's a genius. He is he is somewhat of a closet mathematical genius and he does does really good magic tricks actually. like like don't know what type of magic you call it, but just the Rubik's cube thing. It reminded me of that logo I did a while ago. Well, not not that long ago where it was it was very um Rubik's cubey. What about if we had this was in color? So you got Liam, the L, you got the leaves there. There you go. And then we got the T up here, but we've still got all the segments highlighted. So, you get the the Rubik's cube element. Obviously, I don't want to become known as the guy who only does Rubik's cube shaped logos. Can you see that? I've colored it in very quickly and crudely, but let's just do it a bit better. And this this should be color as well. This will probably be the orange and the whatever color blue. You got LCT. Yeah, I I think you're right. I think some I really do like this one. And this is I don't want to like completely ignore this document. but this this was very much coming from the place of just me mucking around for ages with lots of ideas and things that I thought were cool, but without as much of an understanding of Liam and kind of doing the the leg work here to make sure that what I do isn't just a cool. It's very it's very different between me just doing something that oh yeah that's cool and something that I think is gonna actually fit be fit for purpose and match what uh the target audience the type of clients that Liam is is looking to get and I think some of these do well some of these might fulfill that uh I just want to give it its what would you say give it its due give it the proper time and care and attention that it needs to fully flesh out some of these ideas. Even if it is some of those other ideas. Yeah. Even the Rubik's cube idea, it's just it's a flipping Rubik's cube, so it's less fitnessy and I don't know if it really leans into this, but it's just he's very good at doing Rubik's cubes. So, I wonder if there's a way we could do that, design that, or use color or something. Or maybe you take the tea off the top and have something else. TLC. Oh, yes. You're right. L C. No, there's also a Liam Cleaves name type with the upside down V for the A in top left of the document with what is that one I did? top left of the other document with a different or fitting shade of blue. What have I done? Oh yeah, these would be some good ideas to revisit actually. Yeah, this is another one here. LC. It's like the L is penetrating the C from behind. We've got this one, which I don't know what that is, but it looks kind of cool. Like if I were to go like this actually. Yeah, that is kind of cool. It's It's a bit more abstract. Yeah. Space within. Welcome. Is doing what? Penetrating the sea. this. Yeah. See, this this is too And here I think I've got a bit carried away. This is like the LC and the arrow going up and it's a bit too um just a little bit too abstract. Andrea didn't even flinch when she when she heard that. She's just like, "Yeah, that's what's happening. This is normal. I'm just waiting for someone to to join the stream and be new and then completely freak out or lose it when they get called a cheeky sausage. Be like, "What the hell is this?" This is normal. You must be new here. Cheeky sausage or sexy badger is take your pick. You know, it's one of those. This is kind of cool as well. This is like you're the L and Liam as the Cleaves has trapped you. That looks like the LA Clippers old logo. Go on then. Let's have a look. Uh LA Clippers. Oh god, there's loads of logos. Which one's the old one? This is Yeah, this an interesting one. It's kind of like a a reticle or some sort of focus point. Yeah. Any other little sketches? That's more LS and LC. any other little nuggets down that you put to one side. That's quite cool. Less kind of obviously weights, weights, weights and more subtle. I mean, what about if we took that and we we leaned into the C? I mean, you could you could if you were really reaching do like a C and do that as your weights and have that as your start and stop point. Maybe. I don't know. Maybe I'm just reaching. I'm also terrible at drawing circles. That's fine. Or we try a different C shape and we go for something a bit more oblong. Hey, Moo. How's it going? You all right? Other icons. No, not fitness. I want um progress. That's what I think I'm lacking. Progress arrows and lines is probably the easiest way to combine that into something like a monogram or a letter mark. Yeah. progress. I don't think you could really do a a tick or a check mark. It's kind of like the wrong way around. If you reaching a little bit to try and say that's an L. Yeah, I don't know progress. How do you represent or or Yeah, these are quite good. They're still very much icons, but it's interesting to see how they're represented very simplistically. What about that other idea I had? That Let's do this. So, obviously very rough and wobbly with my super steady, not so steady hands. And what about if we have that piece there, but it's just a missing piece? I don't know. Rather than actually just getting rid of it completely, still showing it. So, it's L and C. I've used a bar chart, but not my favorite option. Yeah, I'm sort of I think subconsciously trying to lean towards a monogram or some sort of some sort of mark. Nothing too simple, like really really simple because I know that he doesn't really like that. If it's too abstract, it needs to be able you look at it and you can sort of it has some sort of meaning. If it's just too abstract, it's like what am I even looking at? Like if I were to do this one properly, I'll um where it would be like this but minus minus the italics. So we'll dshare it. Then it would be something like this. Swap it around. Stick it on the inside. Bring that back like that. So you get the L and the C. And this is like this sort of missing piece. Or I don't know, maybe there's something else you could stick in there. Not sure, but I think it's a clever way of getting the L and the C in the same thing, like same mark. Then maybe I would extend extend these. Got football now. Oh my god, it's five o'clock. What? What? How has that happened? That can't be over two hours. Oh my goodness. Yeah. Make it more sea like it's very scalable. this design. Should I meet you there? Yes. I'll probably park in Wait, yeah. Where the hell did that go, Andrea? Yeah. I mean, you know, it's it's a good start. I know it's it's only been two hours, so I don't I haven't really latched on to an idea I like it, which is a shame. It's nice when you do sort of get something like a thread you pull on. I don't think any of these are really light my world on fire. Um, this one's probably the closest actually, and that's from the other document, but it's still just an L and a C. There's no, do you know what I mean? this gap here. It's a clever way to show L and C in a single mark, but it there's no it's just it's missing some of this. It's missing the stuff that makes Liam unique. And that's the bit that I want to try and get into it somehow somewhere. Cut a flipping neck. We're going to have to definitely pick this up later this week. I'll carry on with this. I'll carry on with this and see if I can get some some other cool ideas off stream. I usually find it a lot easier to get ideas off stream. I think it's when you're streaming, it's like you're doing many different things at once. I think creative bandwidth gets spread somewhat. Just need a really cool idea. Yeah, like there check a check and then a thing around it. So you could do like your L and then you got uh the It's just the L is the wrong way around. But that would be that that would be not necessarily right. But you got your That's terrible. I clearly cannot draw circles to save my flipping But you got your You see? Yeah. Yeah. That did It definitely needs some cooking in the brain. It needs some time in the oven and I want to explore. Yeah, I got to go beyond just LC holding hug. Yeah. So, I mean, even if there's a way to intertwine the letters or something. Oops. Not. So, it's like sharp. Feel like this is like this feels a little bit inspired by what you did, Andrea, and have the C on top. and have it running underneath here like that. Yeah. I'm just trying to make it like they're hugging or they're like actually it looks like the L is piggybacking the Oh my god, it looks like a person. There's a little person there. Look, they're having a great time. Like the the L is piggybacking the C. Is that clever or is that really rubbish? Is it time for a break or is that is there have we I mean they could a bit more G there. Yeah, I can't tell if that's I can't tell if I've stumbled on absolute genius gold or if it's it's time to go maybe touch grass. I can't really tell. Oh dear. Oh well. I got I got excited by the prospect of actually having one of the letters piggyback the other one. That's that is quite fun. I like that. I don't know. Maybe there's an idea there. It Yeah, you're right. It does. It does scream scholar sports. I can't even speak. College sports team. I totally get that. But maybe there's a way we could adapt So it doesn't scream that. Or maybe more linear. I'm so gonna Poppy's going to be so mad. I'm going to be late. It's gonna happen. Let's thicken this brush up and just do that. And then what would we do here? So we'd have to have this come across down here. Then it would go over there. Stick it up a bit more. Yeah. Down there. Trim it off like this. And then what we do here I don't know that's that's a little bit more promising. That's probably the idea that has excited me the most, I think. Not because it's like potentially the one, just because it's more creative. We're we're we're getting the L, we're getting the C, and we're getting something off this flipping board over here. So, that is that's nice. That's nice. What if we bring it down lower? And obviously we we're not even factoring in color. Like if I colored one letter blue and one orange, it would look even more distinctly like one is carrying the other. What if we trim off that top bit as well? Oh no. I mean it is it's very odd shape. It is very odd. I wonder if we could maybe less distorted so it's not italicized. That does look a bit of a mess. I don't really know what that is. It looks like some sort of higgledy piggledy thing. What if we can get L and C like a Rubik's cube? Where's that other design I did? I find it so hard to stop when I get going. Uh, where's the other one? This one Wonder if I could do that and lean into the Rubik's cube thing again. Let's just do a square. Set a timer for 5 minutes and call it Dan, you absolutely have to leave now. 5 minute. Dan, you absolutely have to leave now. Timer starting now. Oh, I don't want to go. That was too much fun. A curved sea not to look so stiff. Yeah, I don't want to be too rigid. We need like a need. What we doing here, Dan? You've got no idea, do you? You're just making shapes. Yeah, this is slightly different. So it's totally maybe this could be something. So it's packed in together. So instead of there being the gaps between them, I was thinking maybe I could do something square with L and C properly like nestled against each other, but then have it um like a Rubik's cube. The Rubik's cube's really not the priority, but it would just be the icing on the cake if I could if I could get that in there somehow. And seriously, he's very good at solving Rubik's cubes. So, let's just sort of line this out a little bit and just see what this looks like. And we could just go off and around the corners. Like I said earlier, it's not all super serious. Wonder actually if we close that gap. Let's close it and have this No, I think it's time to go and get some sunlight done. Or the other option, it's all right. We'll go until the the timer till the phone tells me off. You have this sort of opened bit here to make it a bit more square. And then maybe that something could be in there. I don't know. Yeah, I feel like the LC ideas have probably got the most potential. It's just it's so it's so hard. It's tricky to try and get these things in. I need to I think I need to research other ways to visually represent support. yeah, we did support, didn't we? What about growth? He's not a gardener. Uh, yeah, typical arrow graph. I Yeah, I don't really want to do that. What I would do actually is, and I probably will do this, is go and grab all loads of these ideas. even just logos that you like that are totally unrelated. So if I just if you know if I go and type monogram, find some logos and some styles that are good and build a board out even if it's totally different letters just to get like a an idea of style. So, let's go uh modern. Yeah, like some of these could be quite cool. Yeah, like I like this one. This italicized one here. Similar. It could be an interesting way of showing the journey and have it going upwards. Oh, yeah. I'm going to save that. Actually, let's let's save a bunch of these. In fact, I will start doing that. I'll start building out a little inspiration bundle over here on the left. A crap. All right. F says I got to go or I will be big trouble. But then really, what's the worst that can happen? I think I could probably weather a bit of trouble. Right, we're we will definitely pick this up. I'm going to carry on working on this. But yeah, thank you so much um for joining the stream. This was a lot of fun. If you do want to learn Illustrator with me, I've got my course pinned in the chat. I do Photoshop as well. But um I can't believe where that time went. That's like nearly what two and a half hours. That's that's to say that's ridiculous. I feel like I feel like I've barely done anything actually. But I suppose we have sort of speed condensed this th this is the bit that I think I'd probably benefit from sitting on the sofa with the iPad or something and just getting comfy and just yeah looking up some other bits and pieces and getting inspired as well. Getting some some ideas for I mean this is nice. Not necessarily the right way to go but it's Oh, it is nice though. I don't think it's quite right for Liam. Well, this is the Yeah, some of these are so cool. I'm going to save this anyway, even though it's not necessarily right in its current form. There's just ideas there, like the swoosh and the circle. I could use that for the C. I'm going to have to go I think I've said that about 20 times now. Poppy's going to get in the chat in a minute like, "Where the flipping heck are you?" That's cool. Oh, yeah. It's so It's so fun looking at um just other logos sometimes. I don't I don't do this enough actually. I need to do this more. I usually look at a lot of logos and end up critiquing them. I sort of see them out and about. But there's some great designs and some really talented designers out there. It's so flipping awesome. So anyway, if you are doing a logo and you do feel uh like nothing's coming or whatever and you just oh these ideas aren't good, that's cool. I like that. Obviously not a jewelry logo, but I like the way the left the name is in the middle. I don't know if that's suitable or not, but I I like it, so I'm going to save it. If you do feel like this, honestly, just just I think the secret ingredient a lot of the time is time. You know, being expected to smash out an actually decent logo in a few hours, I just I don't think it's realistic. At least for me, it's not Maybe for some people far more talented it is. But not the fora. That's cool. Yeah. Maybe something like that. Maybe that maybe there is hope for the piggyback logo design. Some sort of some sort of interconnectedness. They're quite L and C don't really naturally flow together very nicely. Um it's like the C is facing its back to it like they've fallen out or something. So yeah, like Andrea's example, you got to really get creative with how you try and fit them together if you want to go the monogram route anyway. Anyway, anyway, I must go. I must go. Thank you so much. You've been amazing. And we will we will carry on with this later in the week. Bye.