Trash VS Linux | TheStandup

Hey, uh, Prime, do you want to do an intro to this week's episode of The Standup? Yeah. Uh, anyways, sorry. Welcome to the standup. The world's most attendance. Did someone really just interrupt me that quickly? The world's most attendance stand up. All the interns are here. They're ready. They're willing to listen to the mandatory optional all hands meeting today. And today we have a very special one. Trash chief snack officer has been going on an adventure with Linux and is here to present us what it looks like when someone who's used Mac for the last 10 years attempts to use Linux. Is this about correct? I think so. Sorry, I had I had candy in my mouth. It sounds good. You know, intros aren't long. Trash. That's on you. He's got to eat the candy now so he's ready for the rest of the pod. Okay, take it away, Trash. That's the intro. That's it. So, I've been using Linux for about two weeks now. I will say nice. I was wrong, right? I think Linux is super fun, but I will say the first week was was hell on earth. So, be so before before I share this with you, I want to just kind of show you the dros I went through just trying to even get anything to work. So, I'm using this old MacBook Air 2015, I think. Oh, that's a separate issue. Yeah. Yeah. So, it's super ancient. The hardware is not that great. Um, it's Mac. The Mac is the main issue. Well, I wiped Mac off of it. Mac doesn't even exist anymore or the OS at least. But well, I just meant the lack of not being an open platform, but yeah. True, true, true. So, I started off with So, I like I I pulled um Twitter or whatever because I just don't really know what I'm doing. And I ended up with Fedora. So, I installed Fedora first. Is that good? I don't even know. That would have been Reddit's answer, but it happened. Fedora's Fedora is fine most of the time. I don't know about on a Mac, but it's fine. The overlap of Fedora users and Mac users trash the circle was one when you were doing that. True. That's the first person. Okay. So, I use Fedora and actually, dude, I love Fedora out of the box. Like, the way I use Mac was actually the same way you use Fedora. Like, I use Hot Corners. So, I use like the top left corner to kind of show like my like mission control or whatever. And it was like the defaults of Fedora were exactly like that. However, I could not get [ __ ] internet to work on it. So, I had literally no internet on my machine. So, what I was doing is I had like chat GPT open on like my other Mac. And I was just hand typing super long commands. Just like literally like 200 character line commands. I was about to lose my mind. And then it got to the point where I bought a uh I can't find it, but I bought an Ethernet adapter, a USB Ethernet adapter because I couldn't get the Wi-Fi drivers to install. So I waited two days for that to ship in. I plug it in. That didn't even work. So I was like, "All right, whatever." So then I tried to reinstall Fedora again, which I did. I did like a different version and then I got it like in this halfway station. Well, let me finish. So, interesting enough, I was able to install to install the drivers halfway, whatever that means, to the point where my USB Ethernet adapter worked, but then my Wi-Fi didn't work. So, as soon as I unplugged the adapter, like I lost all internet, but then I got into this weird thing where my packages were all mismatched, like tried to do like a DNF, like install force or whatever with a whatever drivers, and then everything just went cut. So, I was like, "All right." After like a week of like trying that, I switched to Linux Mint Cinnamon or whatever. Isn't that what um PewDiePie used or whatever? Kamish, you got to listen to me. Oh, no. Not one more comment from you. I'm done rebasing your mistakes. You're on junior CSS duty until further notice. Commish, you can't do this to me. Keep talking and you'll be doing store procedures for a month now. Get out of here. Take him with you. Fun fact, CSS is actually touring complete. Larry, Gary, Tango, Mary, I'm just pulling your request. It looks good to me. You're clear to ship. Thanks. You're welcome. Next. It's an awfully big PR for an intern. Well, I just bumped some dependencies. It's nothing major. Hey, can I get a quick stamp on this? Yeah, don't worry about it. Quick approval. Oh, not on my watch. I'm on your disc like a peas on slot this again. It's literally just a hex code change. Just to prove it. Just to prove it. Squish perf resisting review. Oh, I know you're the dipler. I've seen vibe coding, but that AIN'T IT. MERGE COP. NO. MERGE COP. I hate merge cop. He always makes reviewing take forever. We have code rabbit. Oh, come on. I wasn't even merging the prod. It was a hex code change. We have code rabbit. We don't need real people reviewing such simple changes. Code rabbit can do it for us. Our engineers time is better spent solving problems for customers. You can try it too at code rabbit.ai. Next week on Merge Cop. Now, my plan to merge a dip so big. You're the dippler and I always knew it. I've minted before. I used to mint with i3 for a while. See? Yeah. So, I don't even know what these mean to be honest. Like I like Fedora like I is Fedora cool. I don't know. Linux Mint is that cool? No idea. Linux Mint just looked terrible to me. So, as soon as I installed it, I kind of hated it immediately. But I think it's but I think it's supposed to look terrible maybe. I don't know. But then so so the so I tried the drivers again. I tried to sell the drivers. Hold on. Hold on. Hold on. Somebody just right now there's somebody out there that's been like I've spent my whole life designing Linux Mint and then you're like I think it's designed to look terrible. Like their whole life just fell like their meaning in life just fell apart. As soon as it booted up I was like ew. Like like the first thing I saw was like ew. Like that's like my first word that came out of my mouth. But I was like, "All right, whatever. Let me just try to get like internet on this thing." So, I plug in the adapter. Of course, that doesn't work. I tried Wi-Fi and it doesn't work. And I'm just like, "Dude, I'm so tired of just like manually typing commands." Like, I was talking to Chat GPT. I had like the log. It got to the point to where I ran out of free credits on Chat GPT that I actually paid for a $20 plan cuz I was like, I am not going to give up cuz I I literally gave up for about this. This is good. This is good. So the free free Linux cost you $20 already, dude. Literally, but like for 48 hours, I gave up. I was like, dude, Linux is stupid. I'm not going to. But I was like, you know what? I'm going to see this through cuz I went on Unixport on Reddit. A lot of you trash. I went on Unixport and I was just like going through the top post. I was like, man, these look so cool and I want this. So I was like, all right, hail Mary. Let's just try Pop OS. I was kind of against Pab OS because it kind of looks like a an operating system for little kids because it's like it's like spaceships and rockets and stuff and all just like dude trash. What is directly behind you? ALL RIGHT. THIS IS THIS IS AN INVESTMENT. This is an investment. Okay. This is worth a lot of money. All right. All right. Yeah. So, I got Papa. Okay. Can you Okay. Yeah, I feel really Okay, man. I just got destroyed on that one. You did trash. I can't come back from that. Yeah. Yeah, that was tough. Hey, that thanks everybody for this episode of the stand up. It's like I'm over here opening my Pokemon cards and eating candy. And this Linux operating system is making me feel like a child. It has a rocket ship on it. Rockets are for children and Yum Earth is for adult men. You know what's funny is that the way I rised it, it definitely looks like it's for like a 15-year-old like anime kid. Yep. Yep. Yep. All right. This is made it look even worse. It looks Oh, trash. We'll be the judge of does the final version look more like for children versus All right. So, you installed Pop OS. I'm in Pop OS because everyone said like the drivers are like good. Like I'll get Wi-Fi out of the box. So, I installed Pop OS and lo and behold, like fantastic. It look it looks great or it doesn't look great, but it works. I was like, great. But then I got to the point where like I just don't like how it looks. It just looked terrible. And then and then I then someone told me about Hyperland. No idea what Hyperlind was. I kind of know what it is now at this point. So, I installed Hyperlind and then I switched to Hyperlin mode and then I was just like so confused. Literally, the only thing I could do was open up a terminal and I did it by accident. I hit like super enter. I hit super enter or whatever and a terminal opened. I was like, "Wow, what's happening?" And I was like I was like, "Where's my browser?" I was like, "Where's my status bar?" Like I had literally no idea what to do. And then thank God for chat GPT cuz I was like, "Chadgt, how do I just open anything in general?" Because apparently in Hyperlind, literally every single thing you do just needs like a config. So I have like a config for my like for my status bar. I have a config for like kitty which is like the default terminal and then just like literally anything you would do. So the one eye opener for me was just like just to have a similar experience to Mac or just like all the all the software I took for granted that was like available when you do install like Windows or Mac like this wasn't there by default nor was it set up. So I was like sitting here kind of stumbling through the terminal only. And what also threw me for threw me for a loop was like the tile manager. Like everything opens like in its own designated spot. Like nothing's floating by default. So when I was opening stuff, it just like went to like four squares like in Riverside, which I'm not used to. I kind of like having things floating and I like to move things with my mouse and my mouse just did not work in Hyperlin. I was like trying to click on stuff and I was like what is happening? And to make things worse, apparently if you middle click on Linux or me, at least maybe in pop OS, I don't know, it copy and paste like the last thing when you click. So I was trying to click on stuff and I just kept pasting like terminal commands everywhere. And I was like, dude, and I did that for about 3 days before I was like, "All right, something's wrong." And I Googled it and I was like, "Oh, that's what's wrong." So I have to be really careful where I push on my trackpad cuz I'm using this like old dinky trackpad. You can turn that off, dude. You can turn You can just turn it off. I have it so that obviously I have right click as two fingers and the whole thing is left click. So I just don't I just don't mess that up. All right. Well well now I know where to push in my trackpad. So I've already adapted at this point. Okay. Good. Good. That's good. All right. So continue though. Trash. So you're you're configuring everything in Hyperland. Yep. So I'm like dot files maxed out. I got my dot files on GitHub now. You know what I'm saying? I went on like I went on I went on Reddit and I was like researching. Dude, I'm too out of my mind right now. Not even kidding. Like I used to hate two. I was like, "Dude, cloud code, all this stuff." Dude, like I'm just going to use cursor cuz it's a gooey. But now I'm just like, "Dude, I live in the terminal now." And I'm so I mean to be honest, I was like a terminal kid before like the cursor stuff came out, but I just got tired of it. You definitely are a terminal kid. I mean, you're still collecting Pokemon. How old are you? I don't want my operating system look like it's for adults. I'm never going to recover from that. I'm literally never going to recover. No, Josh. That was That was a fatal blow. I know that that was really bad. But let me show you what I got. And because I'm on Linux, I can't share my screen. So, I have a camera pointing at my at my computer, which I'm going to switch to. But before before I switch, because the monitor I'm on for my old Mac just looks like crap. So, the colors don't look as cool. But I just want to show you what the colors would look like if they if they're on a nice monitor. So, here's my Let me see. Boom. Like, look at that. Oh, look how pretty that is. So, this is like my um Can you see that, Prime? It does look a bit degenerate. I did I did put you in big mode. That's the white. So, that's chick from Demon Slayer. So, that's a chick from Demon Slayer. I actually have her on my wall here. I'll show you. I can see a literally a wall of Demon Slayer right now in chat being like, "Doo." Yeah. Yeah. So, that's Mitsary from Demon Slayer. And then I dude, I went on like a a wallpaper spree for like four hours over the weekend just trying to find wallpaper that just looked good with like this neon color I got going on. Okay, so I just wanted to show this before I switch to my to my camera mode. But here, you guys ready for some scuff demoing? Because it's about to get wild. All right, hit us. Okay. Okay. Okay. Hold on. Virtual. By the way, that's a screenshot. Sorry. That we're cursing before we keep going. Um, someone says, "Demon Slayer is a very overrated anime." Do you have any is kind of overrated, but I did like I just I specifically chose this one because the color just looks sick. Oh, lamb. All right, there you go. We just wanted to get it out there. I just wanted to make sure in case there was a fight you wanted to have with anybody, you could have trash. My favorite anime is the liveaction remake of One Piece. I hate One Piece, too. One Piece and live action in the same sentence is like going to trigger me. But here, here's the poster of uh Can you see it? Yeah, we can see that trash. Oh, it's a delay. That's the poster that's like right above. But here you go. Oh, hey, there we go. This is the demo for my Linux. All right, so there's my there's my login screen that I had to configure myself, by the way. I love that we're getting the Blair Witch version of this, dude. Oh god, my password too, dude. Yeah, I just my password. I just totally typed my password in with like the camera pointing it at. Is it is it the one password or Please tell me it's not the one password, dude. It's It's like one of my old one passwords and I'm just not strong enough. So, I upgraded to a different one password. That's pretty complicated. You would understand. This other password goes to a different school. This is This is a This is a new password. It's got a dollar sign in it. Yeah. Yeah. It's very demo this. This is so hard. This is Okay. So this is my this is my default screen, right? So this is what I mean that this is this is what I mean like with the tile manager. So I do like command enter which is like the default like it does like the tiling thing. This one's floating right now. So let me fix that. But this is like the tiling thing like it does this thing which I'm not used to. Right. I love that by the way. Huge fan of that. Plus different desktops make me very happy. Mhm. And then we got the we got the obviously you got to have Btop on there. You know what I'm saying? So, I like True. Good point. Put on my screen while my wife walks by. So, I just like impress her and she's like, "Wow, you're finally working." You know what I'm saying? And then, you know, then now I'm just like I got the two file manager. I'm using this thing called Yatsi. I don't know if you guys heard of Yatsi. Dude, this thing is sick. I was going to use either Ranger or Yatsi, but I saw like on Reddit some guy was using Yatsi and this thing was like super sick. Um, let me see what else we got here. We got my work. So, I have my my status bar up top, which is customizable. Usually, I turn it off because I don't really need to see that stuff. Oh, that was smooth, dude. That was smooth. Yeah, I configured it. Check this out. So, oh my god, we're Oh, we can see that's perfect. This is all This is all custom artisal code. Nice. Did Did you use Is that a way bar? Yeah, I think way bar is like the main thing people use. So, I just made it just I saw someone on uh I couldn't get any ideas on how to make it look cool. So, I went on Reddit and just like saw some guys. I was like, "That looks sick." So, I just kind of went down a rabbit hole. I like that it's not the full size. It's a little bit more compacted and doesn't go to the edges. I actually like that. I think that's pretty clever. Okay. I'm That's sick. I'm going to better I was worried trash initially that you hadn't figured out how to get the screen to extend to the edge of the display until we saw that there were things that could go full screen. Fair. Fair. assumption. Okay, here's my dot files. Look at that. I got Neoim up. You know what I'm saying? Look at it. Look how beautiful this looks. Oh, wait. Uh oh. Uh oh. Hold on. Hold on. We got the telescope set up. You know what I'm saying? Oh, look at that telescope by the way. You know, you know. Nice trash. Nice. And then we got obviously I did my dot files in Lua because apparently not doing in Lua is not cool. So, I switched it to Lua. So, now we're on Lua. Oh, yeah. All the new Hyperland stuff. The new Hyperland Lua config. Nice. I haven't even It looks so much nicer, too. Like the way you can just write a Lua just makes it just so much easier to Did you get good autocomplete with Lua, too? Like, were you able to pull down? I think so. Pretty decent. It was pretty decent. Pretty decent. I had a pretty good experience. What we got in here? Number two. My dot files. Check me out. Got my dot files now. Star that bad boy, guys. Get over there and star that fast. You know what I'm saying? You need some You got your anime waifuss inside of there as well, or do people have to download those separately? Of course. I got my wallpapers. Bro, are you kidding me? All right. Just making sure. Just making sure. I needed to make sure people could have the authentic trash experience. Mhm. And then and I have a couple other modes. I got uh I have it set up to like if I just like hotkey like my my browser. So, if I do like command G, opens up another like a browser, whatever. You know what I'm saying? And then uh what else do I got? We got Do the function keys work? Can you like make the screen brightness go up and down or is that is that a TV? Find out. Good question. Good question. Oh, it does work. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Dude, not going to lie, I could not fix I couldn't fix my volume for like two days and then I had to like cuz I had to configure it and then I had to like basically dude everything you just have to configure which is insane. So like this thing like the um Oh gosh. Oh. Uh oh. Uh oh. What's happening? Hold on. Oh, there we go. Just to like get like a spotlight type thing took me forever to do. So you can like type in and get all the good stuff. And then I have like a separate mode for like windows that are open, a separate mode for like calculator or whatever. I don't know what else I got in here. I think I think that might be it. Josh, I got a question for you. How much of the how much of the config are when you're saying you're artisally doing it, you're saying you're handwriting this? You actually I hand wrote a lot of it at first cuz I wanted to learn how to do it. Okay, nice. So like but it was like more the traditional route. I went to Stack Overflow and I looked at people's do files and I kind of just looked at it like I would have done preAI and versus just like going into chatgpt and just like tell it to reconfigure. I did at some point have it like help me if I got like super stuck. I'm like what am I doing wrong? It kind of help me do all my configuration stuff. But um other than that, yeah, I tried to just like do everything by hand so I can like truly learn it. There's a lot of stuff I don't really understand. Like Hyperland is like the I don't even know. It's like the window manager and something else put together. I don't even know how to describe it. I need like someone with the elite. It's a desktop environment. Okay. But it also handles like the window. So like when you say like you use like i3, that's like the alternative to what I would use here, right? Yeah. I like I don't use i3 anymore. I I moved over to hyperland. Uh and so it is it is all the things in one. So it's you get the tiling, you get the compositor, like everything just works like in the i3 days. That's the word I was looking for. You have to bring it all together in i3 land. Yeah. So, one thing I was struggling with, I wanted my terminal to be like a little bit more opaque or like like laying opacity so I could see through more, but apparently because of the compositor, this is like as much as it can get. So, it's like it's pretty blurry. Not the desktop environment. My bad. It's the window manager plus compositor. Okay. So, is it the compos? I have a question. What by compositor? So does that mean I've never looked at uh sort of the new architecture of Linux? So Wayland is not a compositor. It's just a substrate you build a compositor on or what I thought I thought Wayland was like the protocol for it. I could be I pretty sure I'm just curious about the terminology. Like obviously I know what Wayland actually is, but I'm just curious like what do they now call a compositor? Yeah, it's something that implements the protocols. So I'm pretty sure way yes chat is saying Wayland is just protocols. So Wayland is nothing. It's just a and then hyperland is the compositor that implements wayand. Okay. So Wayland is like the spec. And then anyone can implement the Whan spec essentially, right? Uh and then so something like hyperland goes like okay I've I've implemented the whining spec. So anyone who's written to that like I've got all the end points so this thing will just work on top of it and then we're going to do whatever we want. But it's not like we had to install another implementation of Wayland alongside like hyperland to get it to work. It's all just kind of like folded into one package. Is that the correct Is that the correct description of it chat? Hold on. One more thing. You guys ready for this? Oh yeah. Oh yeah. Of course. Hold on. Hold on. Why is it not working? Boom. change 10. Oh, with the slide. Yeah. Well, it actually changes. It changes the animation auto. It's like on shuffle. So, hold on. We got some of that. WHAT IS THIS? WHAT IS THAT? You just you just hit a key to change your in case you're feeling like a change in mood or So, this is actually my favorite wallpaper. So, what I'm going to do is there's this there's this other thing called wall lust and it will actually change the entire theme of your desktop to match the color of the photo in the background. So, that's my next adventure. It's called Wallless. It's like some rust thing someone wrote. So, I'm going in deep. And then I'm actually going to I'm buying another computer right now. So, cuz I'm ready to put this uh these dot files on another computer that will actually work and use it as my main machine. I'm going to start trying to game on it. And then and then I'm going to actually start being on the stand up with Linux. Can you believe it? I can. The Linux future is here, man. It's coming. People do not understand. They think the big story is AI. The big story is Linux, man. Great point. Linux desktop year of the Linux desktop. So many people are like, "Yep, I'm moving over." All right, so I have a real question. Yeah, dude. My arm my arm is tired, so I'm switching modes right now. Okay. Okay, switch modes. I mean, I got burnt out of his body. Like I'm like in an earthquake mode right now. Yeah, we can we can see that. I know. I know. Nice. Good job, Trash. Hey, can we get some claps for trash in the chat, please? Everybody, that's great. Yep. I am Linux pilled. Like, I'm not going to lie. Like I always thought it was a waste of time, but after using Linux and realizing like all this bloat I've been used to like Windows with like the ads and just like all this like stupid stuff that's added and then Mac with like its worthless like Spotlight out of the box. It's Finder is terrible as well. Finder is terrible. Yeah. Like Finder is like literally the worst piece of software I've ever used in my life. like just being able to and I also just underestimated how fun it is to just configure things in the way I want them to be verse like these operating systems I can change like the color whoop-ded right here I can actually change like pretty much all of it to however I want and it kind of like when I first when I first started using Vim like in 2018 or whatever it gave me like that same kind of feeling where I just wanted to configure this to make it my own for a long time and this is pretty much what I Um, so like it was just like, dude, I was addicted. I was just sitting on my computer just like between my prompts at work, I was like Linux maxing, dude. I was just like, "All right, let's let's uh let's see what else I can do." So, I'm kind of like still riding that high. So, it's it's probably going to get a lot more intense over the next couple months, too. I can't wait. I love this arc. I love trash Linux. Me, too. I I am very curious about this cuz you specifically said this multiple times which is this whole like configuration thing for everything is just kind of weird now that you've had this configuration for everything. Do you see that the lack of configuration for everything is actually for me is actually weird like you can't like make almost any decisions for other operating systems in any sort of real way and then there's all these programs that then get built on top of it that you like can't alter without really weird ways because no one has the mentality of like hey you can fully customize it. So just I just love that aspect and so I'm curious if you've now changed are you now like hey where is the config for this program? I mean, kind of. Yeah. Like when I'm in when I switch back to Mac and I'm using like my window manager, I'm just like I'm like, "Dude, I got to tweak this. Like, this is not because I'm not using the exact same hotkeys that my that my Linux machine is using." So, now I have to switch like my mental model. Um, someone apparently on Twitter said I can like fix that, but I'm just going to go full Linux. I'm probably going to switch my my work computer to Linux at some point. Dude, this is so exciting. I love all I love this. I'm excited, too, a lot of my co-workers use Linux, which I didn't realize you could do. Yeah, I I used it for Were you using Linux? Yes. Six, eight years at at there. So, do what machine did you get? What machine? I ordered my own almost every single time. Uh, just because I I didn't like Lenovo. So, I tried a Razer, which by the way, I had a 40minute battery life. And I tried for I tried for days to get Bumblebee to work, which was the old uh switch between integrated and a dedicated GPU. I hated Bumblebee. Yeah, it's Bumble [ __ ] is more like it. Like that was just the worst thing in the universe. And then uh you know, then as time went on, I had a bunch of other ones. And so, you know, at least if if if the big end is still the exact same as it was um back in my back in my day, you can just buy a laptop and use that Linux. They have good OpenVPN support. They have good um bunch stuff. F5 or whatever it is. All those things all work. Just throwing it out there. I mean, we got these of course sponsored. So, not technically an ad for this episode, but they are sponsored. Uh these XPS's are awesome. Oh, I would I would suggest trash, although this probably doesn't need to be said anymore, but I'd suggest staying away from Nvidia parts. Yes, good point. Generally speaking, so either get either an AMD like integrated chip or get an Intel integrated chip and do not get a discrete Nvidia graphics, you know, just stay away from that. That's what I'd say because they don't support Linux very well at all. Okay? and uh and they've always historically been significantly worse. Whereas changed, right? Like now that the AI revolution has happened, hasn't like a lot more investment from Nvidia into this world happened? I mean, it has, but I it hasn't really made it better as far as I've seen. I think too for like consumer hardware, it's not it's not hitting as much. I would say the exception for that trash would be if you get something from like um system 76 or framework or somebody else. Yeah, they I think well framework is designed for Linux, right? So they you know you're going to have drivers for everything that work well. If you buy one Yeah. that's meant for the Linux experience then then you don't have to be so worried about the Nvidia situation. Like it's fine. They they tested them and it works. Um but yeah, but we have a lot of AMD stuff here and it all works fine on Linux, right? Like we have AMD laptops and AMD desktops and they all work fine. Nvidia stuff is has been more hit or m miss in the past as Prime said like you know they kind of have been trying to fix that a bit but not very hard in my opinion. So I would just in general I just wouldn't do it. And as an owner in AMD stock I love hearing all this AMD talk. Ryan, thank you for disclosing that. That's great. As a partial owner of Nvidia or I mean as a partial owner a partial part hey I I do I own a little bit of AMD. It's a fraction. It's a It's a fraction. It's a Hey, it's a fraction. Okay. Sue is here and the primogen is just one rung below. They want my vote. Okay. They they come and talk to me about voting rights. All right. Yeah. I pretty much have two carts open. One for framework, one for ThinkPad, and I was kind of just like weighing my options between the two. Um, okay. I do have to do a negative review for ThinkPad because they did hang up on me on customer service. I personally would never go Lenovo. Personally, I'll never do them again. Uh, okay. I I do think Framework, System 76, those are I I've had all of those. I've had ThinkPad, Dell, System, uh, System 76, and Framework, and three out of four, 76, three out of four of those I have used and I had pleasant experiences on all of them. Yeah, I will say I'm not suggesting that they're good, but I would say we have Lenovos here and Linux runs f just fine on them. AMD Linux uh uh like a AM the AMD integrated like uh Zen 4s uh and stuff like that all runs Linux just great on Lenovos but you know again that's not saying that they're good machines or anything. I'm just saying that Linux doesn't have problems with it. Mhm. So yeah, trash. I'll just throw out there too. I do I mean this we can talk about it off stream so that you know that it's uh also real, but I love this XPS that they the battery life is so low. People were people were recommending that as I literally fly from Rapid City to Miami without charging my device, having cursor open programming in Vim, which takes like a cajillion LSPs from both of them, and having like YouTube playing Miss Mon'nique. So I somehow made it all the way through like 6 hours of flight on a Linux machine. So that was an absolute incredible experience. Yeah. So I was programming outside today. No joke. I'll show you a picture after stream trash. Cuz it has my feet in it. So chat can't see it. So this is what I'm going to do once I get my Once I get my next machine. I'm actually going to speedrun more Dros just because it's such a pain. It's such a pain to get distros to work on this old Mac. So I'm going to try Arch is going to be my next one. So, I'm going to try Arch. I want to see like how complicated because everyone keeps saying it's like the the ultimate neck beard one. So, I just want to see like how difficult it is. I'm going to try Nix OS because my co-workers are all about Nixos. Try it out and then I'm going to go back. I think I really am going to actually end up setting up on Fedora. But we'll see. We'll see. I have more news for you. But I'm I want to try a lot of the dros just to, you know, get my feet wet. You know what I'm saying? You can run updates. Yeah, you can run into some issues like uh I I Here's a good one for art. Everybody ran into a lot of issues. All Yeah, I was I I installed GDB yesterday on a car ride, but then I couldn't run GDB because I had mismatching uh uh some some sort of lib SOS and so I had to update I had some things that I needed to update, but I didn't have enough bandwidth to update like the whole machine. And so then I just couldn't use GDB and just print f debugged my way through. Like sometimes you run into those issues and I think that doesn't happen on YUbuntu because Ubuntu has like a fixed set of versions if I'm not mistaken to where like they have like this is our release and so I think things just work together. Okay. You know better, right? Yeah. Pac-Man SU just was not was not in the cards for me cuz I was getting no internet. Yeah. One thing that also trash. So if you're not using yours in the car on your phone's hotspot internet, maybe you won't have that issue. You won't have that issue for that. that true. The one thing that kind of threw me for a loop after I used like I think I used three distros at this point were just like the packages that were just available in them. So like uh two which is like DBN uses what apt VBN was like DNF or whatever. But then I I realized as I tried to install these packages between them like one didn't exist in this one and one existed here. So I use like a different command like uh snap or pack. I can't remember what Oh gosh. Flat don't get flat pack with snap on there. It was something. That's the nice part about Arch is you literally have everything. Like I've almost never ran into something that I wasn't just like, "Go put it in." Arch Paru Paru-St. So that's like one thing I just I don't It's kind of like mpm modules for me. I'm just installing things and I don't even know what I'm doing. You know what I'm saying? Linux is not great that way. It's the one thing that I really dislike about it that I wish had been different, which is that like there's liter in Linux there has never been and probably never will be a sense of here is how we distribute a binary reliably. It just it simply does not exist. Like everything relies on this sort of upstream package management or complete containerization kind of approach. And they never really were like here's just an API that you write to and this will run on all Linuxes forever everywhere. They just never did that. And it's, you know, it's it's strictly userland. Like the Linux kernel API is actually like very clear. You can go look at it and it just is what it is. So like, you know, technically a program written to just the Linux kernel probably could run everywhere and for a very long time. Um, but like userland is just such a completely nightmarish thing that you end up having to do a lot of work if you actually want to distribute a binary that just works everywhere as opposed to going through this process of like everyone builds a package and you download the package or everyone puts things in a giant container and then the container installs and doesn't quite play nicely with things cuz that container has something and this container also has a version of that thing and so you can't have the same one between them and like it it's just it it that part is worse than Windows unfortunately. Uh and it probably isn't going to get better. It's my it's the one sadness of Linux. How close is app image? Just like I I I have an Arch computer that I'm running right now and I've had like YUbuntu and sorry to say trash pop OS although I did change the background. Uh have absolute child. Um well actually I was running awesome WM on it but anyways that's fine. Um but uh like app image runs fine across both of them that I don't is it like does that solve the problem or no? I literally don't know what app image why it works. So I'm very uneducated. I don't even know what that is. Well mo so you mod it and you run it. Right. That's it. Anything that can anything that like does effectively containerization in some way is a quote unquote solution to this problem. Right. And the idea the idea behind that is generally that like we're going to take all of the what would have been userland dependencies of this thing you know whatever the gibbc was and whatever all the sos were that it was using and like all of that stuff and we're just going to pretend that that is what it is running on right gotcha and there's a lot of ways that you can do that I mean docker is this as well right like that's what that was it was attempts and there are many attempts to solve that problem. But the problem is that that means that if there's anything like shared that you were trying to have these two people do the same thing like like I want you both to use this config file or something, right? It starts to be it's now that's like its own new thing. It's like okay well how's that going to get mapped? And all of a sudden you're back to the same problem. It's like oh okay now we have to make sure that like they're both using this kind of config directory with this layout structure. Right? So there's like they just you can understand why this problem happened because it's it's downstream of the fact that there's many people shipping userland. Right. That makes sense. So so it's like a strength and a weakness that come together. The strength is that you can have lots of different people experimenting with how the user land is structured. And the idea is that maybe that is more fruitful because different you know if if one of them fails then we just don't care. that goes away and we keep the ones that worked, right? Um, so it's not like it's all bad, but the problem is like it's still not quite like the only coherent thing that people have gotten to in Linux for long term is containerization really. Uh, and otherwise it's just this really, you know, and people, you know, who try to get really creative with it, like I said, you can kind of try to do things where you're really just talking directly to the like kernel system APIs and you try to like have very little dependency on the userland stuff. You can do that. Uh, but that's not how most things are built. And it's also there's it's got its own issue. So just it's harder, right? Um, it's just harder. And it would be better if it was uh to use Rico Mariani's phrase, it would be better if it if someone some how someone succeeded at some point in getting it user land to look more like um a pit of success rather than a pit of failure, right? to make it easy to just when I make something just by default if I just sit down and make something the easiest thing to do is something that will just work everywhere as a binary with no need for any special consideration and no need for containerization and like it would just work. Uh but we haven't gotten there yet on Linux, right? Whereas in general like if you built something the like on just a blank win32 API, it actually runs on every version of Windows generally speaking and Linux now. True, right? Like you could write a Win32 binary and it will run on all Linuxes now a lot of times. Nice. Uh so that's kind of funny. Uh but yeah, that's where we're at. That hurts a little bit, Casey. Say it like that. The Linux back compat people have done such a great job of with Wine and Proton are so amazing that it just runs right. Sorry. That quick question. So, one of the things I've ran into was at least on the Pop OS repository, whatever you want to call it, they had like an outdated version of something I wanted. Like, what do you do in that scenario? Do I just have to go build from source myself? Is that like recommended or do I have to sit there and wait? You can add a rep. You can add their repository if they have one is usually the recommended approach. So, like if if the people making the thing have a repository for your DRO. Mhm. You can add that as a preferred package source. That's one way, Cuz like in general, just like as a as a rule, Linux's lines uh tend to have the following structure. There are a set of like blessed package repositories that are like the the people who maintain this distro like pop OS or whatever or Debian or whatever it is, right? they maintain uh or any Debian sub like like Mint they have their kind of like this is our package repository that when you run one of those package man managers it talks to these blessed repositories and that's where it will get the versions of the packages that you install right but you can also add your own repositories to like supersede that so you can go like oh um the people who make Hyperland they put up their own repository for my DRO that has a newer build of the thing or whatever. If they did that, you can just add that with one line. You can say like, hey, whatever package manager I'm using, add this other repository. And then when you say, I want to install Hyperland, it'll go, oh, there's a much newer version of Hyperland that comes directly from the Hyperland repository, which you said I could use. Now I'll install that. That's way one, right? like an alternative mirror for like npm or something like how you can set up an internal one for that. So you can always look for that and it comes with the same risks as you would expect. You're basically now trusting those people to have built products. But hey, previously you were trusting a bunch of papa with people who definitely don't have uh you know an incredible security team or something like that to provide you the packages. So it's you know you have to assess the source to make sure that you don't think it's any less trustworthy than where you were getting your packages before. But as long as you've done that, you can add it and now it will just update automatically and when you do your normal package manager commands, it will just look in that repository automatically. So you don't have to do anything else. That's like the most automated way to get a more modern thing, right? If they don't have that, so if the place that you, you know, if the thing that you want, um, doesn't happen to have that, then yeah, then you're into like, okay, I've got to go look, do I want to GitHub clone this thing and build it myself? Do I want to uh look for a a flat pack or an app image or like those kinds of things where someone has pre-built it into like something that's designed to run containerized. So it won't integrate as completely into my Linux distro as it might otherwise have because it's not actually built for this distro, but I can run it in a containerized way and maybe that's fine for whatever I'm doing, right? Um, eh yeah like trash like on for me I don't usually use the like cursor bin that's in the AUR like I just let it update itself and it downloads a new app image and then like I can run that app image again so that I don't have to wait for other pack for Arch to update it and also sometimes I don't want to update my whole system just to update one dumb program or like for Neoim I would usually just like have a build folder locally on my computer and then I would just run make pseudomake install and then it will just install whatever version of neovim I currently wanted to have. So like that okay yeah usually you know usually they have some like make script some some make file something simple to like build it for you and then it's like install some set of dependencies maybe or maybe they'll have like a you know an app image or something that will make it very very easy to get the latest one. Got it. It's a problem, Trout. Like it it is like like I was saying, like I was saying at the outset, if I had to say the number one problem with Linux right now for the average user who, you know, isn't somebody who's maybe techsavvy, it's this, right? Because it's like you just can't distribute binaries, reliably and everyone, it's one of those problems where you say it and Linux people say no, no, no. It's like no, it it is full stop. Like you it is not arguable. It is harder to download binaries on Linux than other places. And that's not really a criticism of Linux because like I said, it comes from the fact that they're trying not to have one uniform userland. They're trying to allow people to experiment. And so there is a benefit to it, right? Like like DHH could not have made Omari, right? If this had not been true, right? And the same is true for all the other people who've made their distributions. Basite, Linux, Mint, Pop OS, Nixos, whatever it is, right? So the fact that we have all those things is because this was allowed. But the downside of it is everyone made their own ideas about what it means to ship a binary as a result. And those things are not necessarily compatible. They haven't necessarily even been compatible across revisions of the same thing because again it's like there is no hierarchy that's saying this is how Linux should be. the kernel since it has you know Lionus sitting there cracking the whip he can sort of say like we're not breaking this like here is the API to the kernel it must remain consistent never break right and that's been pretty like that layer of Linux has not had this problem but the user land stuff has and so that's just how it is and until someone can politically solve that problem somehow uh political plus technologically solve that problem it's going to remain a sticking point probably obvious answer Casey is just write Win32 applications and then just let proton handle it. The other thing is the browser, right? A lot of people use a lot of web apps now. They they use like stuff in the browser and the browser is its own way that this gets solved, right? It's this separate substrate that everyone programs to. It's exactly like Win32 in that respect. So there's two places that you can go to get like stable Linux distribution. One is Win32. Yes. Right. And the other is the uh the browser. And both of those things will work. Uh the part that doesn't work so well is if you actually want Linux native. Uh and there you're kind of stuck in this like containerization land or being very very careful about like using only kernel stuff and having your own back compat baked into how you communicate across those channels. It's just it's not great. It's not great. Yeah. But I feel like honestly I mean like my wife uses a Chromebook. Like she could use she could use my Linux computer cuz she just opens up Chrome. that's all she needs anyway. So, it's like it would be just fine. Like that's all she uses a computer for. For a lot of work that is, you know, web- based like that, then then this is just not an issue, right? Because the the browser will always, you know, Google and uh and Firefox, they they always keep an updated browser for basically every DRO. So, you're going to have that, right? And so, if the all if most of your stack that you use every day just runs in the browser, you're good to go. So what you're telling me is that the famous talk by destroy all software Gary Burnernhard with metal where eventually the VM for uh or eventually the kernel becomes just a VM for JavaScript is really the ultimate goal here where we all don't have to think about uh management of any kind. There is no sandboxing. Everything's already pre- sandboxed. It just all runs. Like that's actually truly the ultimate answer. I mean it's it I I guess I'm not sure if it's the ultimate answer, but what I'm saying is just that there are substrates that have persisted. Win32 and the browser are two of them. And uh Linux has not yet managed to produce one other than the kernel API, right? Uh and so that's just where we're at. And to to be completely frank, neither has Mac. Like Mac is very bad at this as well. uh you I you know you don't really want to be in a position of having to ship stable binaries on a Mac because they're like they they break by default. They're like, "Oh, you know, did you get that notorized for this platform or whatever?" Right? Is a thing they've stuck in that process, right? So, they're not designed uh they they are not trying to make this thing that's uh designed to have things run forever uh and all that, right? Win32 kind of was and has been maintained in that way. Um Win32 specifically, not some of their newer stuff, for example. Does Win32 run 64-bit applications? Is that like a holdback of its naming? But it's Yeah, I mean you can call it Win 64 if you want, but I'm talking about the Win32 API that then got pulled forward into into 64bit. Favorite gaming system, Casey. Win 64. because the reason I usually say Win32 instead of Win 64 is because they've added a bunch of APIs since then and none of those are reliable, right? Like all the new stuff, forget it. Um, you know, and fun. So I don't I don't know that you want to go that route, but the older stuff is is very reliable and very uh sort of universal. You can run, you know, a thing that uses the Win32 API compiled 60 as a 64-bit binary will run basically everywhere. I've had, you know, uh examples like uh I have a bunch of tools that I I build that I use on my Windows development machine and I was like, "Oh, I got to port these to Linux." No, I didn't. I literally just ran them and underwind and I could not tell the difference. It was just seamless and I was like, "Wow, this has gotten really really good." Right. Uh so it it really is true that that you know, as long as you're doing a sane uh a sane wind32 app, uh you can run that on Linux now and it just works. So fun little side story on Win32. Uh, one of the first things I ever uh, attempted to learn and build was building my own multiplayer programming in FPS, DirectX8, uh, which I later discovered to have many security flaws, but uh, a good like 10% of the book was starting a Win32 window. I am very It takes a lot of lines of code in my in my reme in my memory of really of just like it's like 4 500 lines of code just to get like the window to show if I remember correctly. It was a brew. It was I would say it's probably it's probably 100 maybe maybe 75 let's say. Okay. Not I mean this they probably had a lot of stuff in there that wasn't necessary. Not not not my not my time. Not does that include DirectX8 startup though? Yeah that's part of some DirectX8 handling which by the way. Okay. That that adds Yeah, that adds unironically this part of my hand started hurting because of DirectX. I had to quit. I had to quit my dreams of of an aspiring game programmer because DirectX was so many capital letters. I started developing a problem with my wrist and I thought I I can't pro I can't do DirectX. Like it's going to kill me. Yeah, DirectX 8. I don't remember the startup code for that. But, uh, even DirectX 11 now, which would be the standard thing you'd write to, uh, if you didn't want to go 12 would be, uh, it it's a it's really not that many. I mean, maybe maybe it's 100 150 if you wanted something reasonable. It's it's actually not much. It's not like Vulcan or or it's not it's not double pointer, all capital letters, and hap everything happens to be 30 to 50 characters long. Well, that's true, but there's not very many lines of it. You don't have to do very many things. let's put it that way. I was going to say the AI can write that for you, Prime. You can save your little pinky for later. Oh, my little my little pinky. Yeah, cuz I, you know, even back then I didn't like using the caps lock key, but now I understand why. Um, okay. Well, this has been enlightening, Trash. I I really want to congratulate Trash on quite the deep dive, honestly. And handcoded, too. Can people can people get your DRO? Like, have you put this up? You had a GitHub there a second ago. Yeah, I shared it. Uh I posted it in the chat. Yeah, I was because I think I think everyone needs to know how to get this if they want to if they want to be like trash and have like waifuss on the desktop and all that stuff. Like how do we on the desktop? There you go. Like an adult. Yeah. Like an adult. None of these rocket ships and a wife on the desktop like an adult. Poo on the desktop. Not a wife on the desktop. Right. No, I'm I'm interested to see uh when I try to port this to a new machine how that works out and then also just how it's going to work with like Arch. And if you're all Hyperland based in a lot of the Hyperland programs, you're going to probably have very little My guess is you'll have very little problems. So, okay, here's my question. So, if I switch distros and I just decide to use Hyperland on all of them, is there really a difference in the experience I'm going to get? Package manager and that's it. That's a big one. So like which packages are available and how recent are they and and how how is the how is the underlying like config set up like oh like what's how is slashvar and slash etsy and stuff like how are these like set up I mean which you may or may not care about right I've had very little interaction with slashvar and etsy in my day like only when I was having to really think about like lddding and figuring out what the heck's running with uh uh the TV app that's the only time I ever had to like concern myself I guess I just, you know, especially with Odin, it's all together. Like I've never, you don't, you don't even think about any of it. So then here's my next question. Was my only reason to switch distros is literally just for the package manager at this point. And well, and the outof-box install experience is actually non-negligible big one. At least for me, like in the old days, I used to install Ubuntu a lot, even though I strongly disliked actual Ubuntu just because it was one of the few things that you could reliably install on like a laptop and it actually worked out of the box without you having to be some kind of a uh a uh kernel whisper like you know adding grub adding kernel parameters on the I got hit I got hit with a grub menu and I just lost it, dude. I was like, I don't even know what to It was like the screen was black and I was just like smacking my keyboard. I was just like, what's happening? And so, like in the old days, if I was like, I don't want to deal with this. You know, I would probably install Ubuntu on something just cuz I knew it would work the first time, right? And I wouldn't have to like actually go figure anything out. Uh nowadays, the same thing is true. It's just not Ubuntu necessarily, right? Like there are definitely distros that I find are more reliable uh out of the box or whatever. And so like that is a meaningful differentiator at least for people who don't want like if what you're trying to do is just install this machine as quickly as possible and you're not like here for the experience, right? Uh then that's a that's a thing that you would care about, right? And like you found um I'm guessing that for MacBooks specifically, right, for MacBooks, there are probably certain distros that install much cleaner because they've been tested on that and they include the drivers by default that that are specific to Mac whereas a lot of dros probably don't because they don't care about Mac because it's a closed platform, right? And so my guess is that that was sort of what you encountered there. Like most of the time a Fedora Fedora install will just work on most PCs. Like it's pretty reliable now. Uh I found but like yeah Mac OS uh I had a similar uh experience to you when I wanted to put Linux on a Microsoft Surface right. Uh you know Basite for example which normally would install on a gaming machine no problem. You just run it and it installs can't run on a Microsoft Surface. So I I think I used a Fedora uh I don't remember which dis which subflavor plasma I think right the you know you can they're they're the same basically but you can pick what your default is but anyway so I I think I I installed a flavor of Fedora on it and that worked out of the box and then I had to do some things to like get it running on the surface correctly like you know to have it uh respond to like touch correctly and whatever but you know that's how that goes you I think nowadays if you were on something like a system 76 or a framework computer, I bet you could pretty much have the same experience with anything, right? Yeah. We when we when we installed Omachi, it was like uh I I've done it a couple times on my uh framework one. I can go from like the installation process on a laptop to 3 minutes to the login screen to one more minute to have Wi-Fi and everything up and running. It's I mean it's it's pretty outrageously quick. Yeah. When you're installing, are you guys using USB drives or are you just like USB drives? Had to order one. I haven't had a USB drive in years. Had to go Amazon, prime that real quick. Got to put it on a USB, flash it. And then you got put a little sticky note on there that just says like Arch or something. And then that's why you always have your Arch one handy. Carry it around with you. Got cheaper. No, you want to put the latest ISO. Again, in my experience, it doesn't take that long. Just get the latest ISO again. It'll have better it'll have better drivers. Like I would get if I'm going to go and I'm not going to go say, "Oh, I'm going to install the three-year-old Linux on this bad boy." I got to get it fresh, man. Appreciate the inspiration, Trash. And I hope everybody enjoyed the world's most attended standup. So, thank you everybody for being a part of it. Thank you, Casey. Uh computerenhanced.com. Thank you, Tee, uh the primogen.com. I'm not really sure where you you can find me at veganbot onx.com. If you're really angry at TJ, go check out veganbot at veganbot. Give him your feedback. And of course, trash. Thank you, Trash. We'll link your uh there's like a 20% chance we'll link your uh dot files repo in this video if we remember. Do it. Do it. It's okay. The name like trash. They're not ready. They're not ready. They're not. Is the standup. Thank you very much. Bye everybody. A boot up day errors on my screen. Terminal coffee and living the dream.