Dan Clancy talks to JellyYT | Let's Chat Podcast EP 7

Hello and welcome to Let's Chat. Let's Chat is a live podcast where I talk with creators about live streaming and the ways that streamers and their community shape culture yesterday, today, and in the future. Um, I get on the game, have a good time, talk to chat, and just enjoy the moment. It's what the It's what the kids enjoy these days. You cannot lay the next brick without the one that comes before it. I mean, it took me so much time. Time time is the most valuable resource in the entire world. And I still want to collaborate with a lot of different communities and sort of be the bridge between them. Hello, welcome to Let's Chat. Um, we are live here at TwitchCon and for everybody online, thanks for being here. Everybody in the audience, thank you. I'm Dan Clancy, the CEO of Twitch. And today we are here with Jelly and No Craner. Yeah. I TwitchCon is a good time. TwitchCon is a good time. It's early in the morning here. You're watching from abroad. We uh we had a good time. Yeah. And um it's great to be with Jelly. Um we actually just met yesterday. We did for the first time. Yeah. You started rapidfiring questions. I was like, "Hey, keep it for the last. Keep it for tomorrow." So I know nothing about them. No, I I did a little research. Did a little research. We also we're going to have to recreate the conversation we just had because that actually was a really good conversation. That is true. Yeah. But but given that we are live on Twitch now, I am sure there is somebody watching. Okay. Okay. That wants you to give just a quick story of Jelly and all the freaking quick. I said quick quick. We'll keep it quick. So So who are you? Wow. Well, uh my name is Jelly. I'm a Dutch guy, which actually is funny because I'm on my home country right now, but I don't live anymore. I moved out about 10 years ago. I've been a creator for 15 plus years, even though I'm 29. This is a weird industry. Even I'm an old guy here in this industry now. It's weird. I play video games. Yeah, you look I was going to say you look a little old. Yeah. Thank you, bro. Thank you. Thank you, Dan. Um, no, I play video games for a living. Uh, right now focusing on GTA for obvious reasons. Still waiting. It's been 13 years since the last came out. That's that GTA V is the reason my career kicked off. I will say I I I think this time it is coming hell or high water. I can't wait. I think it's happening. I think it's happening. No doubt. I know. There's no more delays. Yes. No. No more further information I can say. No, I'm kidding. I wish. Right. I can't either. I can't either. Um Okay. So, let's go back. I think 2010 is when you started. Uh yeah. I don't know the year. I think around there. I mean, I've been doing it ever since I was like a kid. Like really like So, let's go back to when you were a kid, though. Let's go back to your kid and tell the story of talk about that. You know, how you just started to do it. Okay. So, a I loved video games, right? So, I was playing a game called Runescape at the time, which is actually still semi-popular on Twitch. Well, yes, because if you if you loved Runescape, you Runescape, you still play Runescape? I think Runescape came out in 2004, so I was 8 years old and I was grinding that game. Yeah, I didn't really care too much about school, which I I'm not the greatest example, I suppose, but Runescape. So, all the all the parents may not want their young kids listening. I I I don't know. Hey, it turned out fine for me. So, there's there are chances. So, Runescape was a great game. Loved that to death. And um there was this trend going on of people recreating music videos uh like MTV music videos on actually YouTube in the game Runescape and I wanted to do that to do that too. So I downloaded the software at the time called Handy Cam which basically records your screen. It's like preobs days and uh I just like typed the lyrics and just created a little music video. And I was like maybe 10 years old at the time. Wow. And because the the creator space wasn't as flooded yet, you know, it was kind of easy to get like a hundred views, 200 views. And that was exciting. Y that was really exciting. So, uh, my first Christmas present that I can really remember is I asked my parents, I want to have a camera. I want to have a camera to record my screen and record things outside and record my face and and whatever. And uh, I got that one. I think I was like 11, 12 years old. And that's just kind of when it rolled. Yeah. Yeah. So, it's kind of I don't I don't remember doing anything else. Right. I've never had a real job. I've never flipped burgers. Well, well, well. And in terms of when you were so into it, when you were still in high school and all that like did you start building an audience while you were still in high school or had you left high school when the audience started getting Yeah. So, I think I was around 13, 14 years old and I had a channel with uh so this is like 15 16 years ago. I had a channel with like 3 4 thousand subs and um I was playing a lot of Call of Duty at the time. This is like Call of Duty 4. I can't remember the year. Uh and then Rockstar Games actually announced a game called GTA 5. So little thing. Yeah, that's when they announced it. I was a big GTA fan at the time. So I I created a brand new channel called GTA 5 videos. Uh which is 3 years pre GTA 5 release. So this is 16 years ago, I guess. And that channel blew up. Uh, I think that was my first channel with 100 100k subs at the time. And uh, I started making decent money. I remember I got locked in with some crazy contracts cuz all these companies from the US start calling you for money and uh, it was terrible. But, uh, you know, still I was doing pretty well for myself even though I was a young little boy. Yeah. Still in high school. And and now did were you then cool in school or not? uh the adventure because you know another generally the the kids that love gaming aren't the cool kids in school but I wasn't like the most popular I was like kind of medium you know but was it since you were online doing stuff was it like oh wow that's kind of that's kind of interesting it doesn't work they laugh at you but if it works they they're like they look up to you so um I suppose it's a little bit of both you know I wasn't like the most popular but I wasn't like being bullied or anything right right I do think what the interesting thing I think what is is so true that like um uh of course there's all this challenges being online, but when you're in high school, you have this both sides because if anything you somebody doesn't like then it's just more more immediate, you know. Yeah. Well, I didn't stay very long. I I dropped out when I was actually I wasn't even allowed to legally drop out. I hope I can say this. Uh but I talked to my um uh what is it called in Dutch? Call it a mentor. I don't know what is the what the English name is. And um I just I just told him, "Hey dude, like this is my passion. This is what I want to do." And your parents were How did your parents feel about it? Were they like They were They gave me one gap year to make it work. They said, "I'll give you one year. If it works out, good for you. We'll give you another year, and if it doesn't work out, you're going straight back." All right. And uh luckily worked out. So I think I was 16, 17 at the time, and I just said, "See you later, guys. I'm not coming back." All right. So, um, so of course, you know, back in when when Twitch came around back in 200, you know, 10, 11, 12, um, and all that, um, of course, a lot of the YouTube gaming creators y um, uh, one thing that I've often said is, you know, one thing that works so well Twitch is if you were a YouTube gaming creator, the one thing you had to do to create a 20 minute or an hour video was game for three hours. For sure. Right. And then Twitch came along and it was like, "Oh, wait. You mean I can have people watch me?" And but you interestingly didn't I mean you dabble, but you didn't do that back then. You're right. You know, in some ways that was of course a number who did it, but you're a little distinctive in that when when live streaming so what when back then back in when you know it started you know 2013 14 why wasn't live streaming something that you know well I I'll be very realistic Dan the YouTube space and just the creator space in general was still very young and for so so for somebody to just make a living off it in general was like a rare thing so when something that fragile is happening you don't want risk it or do anything else. So, my main thought was uh I'm just going to keep doing what I'm doing here. This is going to be 100% or 110% of my focus and I know I can make money somewhere else. I know I can grow an audience somewhere else. I know I can do what like other things, but this is what's working. So, that's what I'm going to keep doing now. When did you did you try live streaming back then or I actually did? I think in uh 200 God I I can't remember the years. It's a long day. A long time ago. Long time. years ago. I was actually a Twitch partner at the time already. Uh and uh I did do some streaming. Did you enjoy it or was it kind of I really like streaming actually. Yeah, I really enjoy streaming cuz you can be a little bit more true to yourself. And you can just actually have like genuine fun with your audience, right? Whereas video, especially these days, it's just like overedited. It's in production for a week. It's not, you know, it's it's it's not TV level. Not even close. But there's more things going on with Twitch or streaming in general. You just hit live. Have one ID, just hit live. Yep. There's nothing nothing else to it. And your audience loves it. You know. Yep. And now now you've been streaming a little more. Yeah. Over the last picking it up a little bit more lately. It's it's just been, you know, in the back of my head. And I'll be realistic as well, like I'm focusing less on on YouTube content these days. I used to post two videos a day. Okay. Two a day. Two a day for six, seven years straight. Wow. Wow. Now I'm posting two a week in a good week. Really? And how long how long are your videos? Usually 30 to 40 minutes at the moment. But they do take a good two weeks to produce, right? So are the are the two that you it used to be two a day, now two a week, but is the has the production value changed in the two a week from the two a day? Absolutely. Yeah. Okay. So talk about that. Talk about how the production value, you know, and how you think about the storytelling and all that. That's just in general as well. That's the creator space, you know, you need to you need to like always level up yourself and and be better than your your biggest competitor, right? Uh because if you are at the top, you're going to get comfortable there and you're going to stop innovating. And so the the the only way to catch the top is to to innovate beyond them and to do things that are better than than what they are doing, think differently. And so, uh, when I was doing really well on YouTube and I was posting two videos a day, that was really working for me. But at the same time, a lot of smaller creators, they were they were leveling up their their production game. They were they had better hooks. They had better thumbnails. They had better edits. They had everything figured out better. They weren't performing better at the time, but, you know, eventually because I was very comfortable, eventually that catches up, you know. So, that's just that's just the space in general. People will always catch up to you if you stop innovating. And so, uh, I've also been in the news for a long time. I'm not going to do the daily grind anymore. I mean, that's that was very stressful. But you have a team now. I have a team. Yeah. So, if you if you wanted to produce more, you could you could produce more in terms of the team and all that. I could definitely post more. I I could probably double it. Uh, but it's just not something that I would want to do right now. Right. Right. Maybe uh maybe in around six months time. What about short what about short form content? Ah short form is a tricky mind. I don't really get it to be honest. It's fun. Well, you're an old man, huh? Sorry. You're an old man. I'm an old All the all these youngsters with this short form stuff. Short form is just something as a creator you have to do. You don't really want to do it in my opinion. Um it doesn't really make you any money. There's no real revenue model. uh it grows your audience to an extent but then you realize it doesn't actually translate to anything right so I wish it never I wish it never existed in a way but it does just have to live with it interesting interestingly one of the things I often think about and this is there's really been this arc if you go back to preyoutube right you think of the the uh number of people that could creatively build something that could translate to linear TV right the number of people in the world that had that creative vision and all that smaller then YouTube camera the number of people that could creatively express a vision increased exponentially because you know because of YouTube and cameras and all that. Um but of course creating a 5 to 10 minute video that's good is actually pretty hard. Yeah, for sure. Yeah. Okay. Creating a 30 second short god who can't do that, right? And so in some ways, right, the creative pro I suspect one of the reasons too is there's something about the create the uniqueness and the creative expression when you have more time and it's just so short. Yeah. I mean making or standing out in general will always be hard because there's always people that are doing thinking things differently and maybe doing things better. Uh but I think because shorts are just short form content, you can do a whole lot more of them and experiment a lot more. So, uh, it's a volume game sometimes. It's a volume game as opposed to saying because you put two out a week and you work to make sure each one of those are good. Right. Part of the strategy in short form is more more more and let the algorithm figure out which ones are good. Exactly. It's volume. And to be honest, when one pops, you think, now I figured it out. And then you recreate it. You you change the hook slightly or you you you upload the exact same thing and the second time it just doesn't work. It doesn't pop, right? doesn't make any sense, right? It's like it's like the time of day and the hour of the day you uploaded matters. It I don't really There's no real Okay, I have a I have a great thread to go on here, okay, which I I have a big belief there's always this um uh blend, okay, of um uh uh raw talent, okay, hard work and luck, okay, and in any endeavor, it's some you know blend of those things for sure. So talk about yourself and how much of your success and and try to be honest in terms of because we all do have real talents, right? You know that are kind of us, you know, talent, hard work versus luck. I think the I'll jump on the luck thing first because I think that's the one like people are probably always wondering like how much like that guy just got lucky. Um or how much luck did that guy had. I think the luck element is probably the the the people that you surround yourself with or or you might get born into it. Like like for example, I had a family who uh saw what I did and they just let me do it, right? Of course, if it didn't work out, they would have probably pulled some strings at the time, but I was I was enjoying it and they could see that. And that's probably that's luck, right? Because that's something that's out of my control. Interesting. In some ways, you if I said randomness instead of luck, it's almost Yes. because it's out of your control. If you then go back to the hard work, if I didn't put in the work as a 12year-old boy at the time and my parents would have seen that I wasn't putting in any work, they wouldn't have let me do that. So, how much luck really is it? So, I think you can work you can work towards luck with hard work. You can you can generate luck in a way uh by uh putting time and effort into this. Actually I think I think in in very few disciplines is being in the right place at the right time not an important thing right and one of the things that people mistake is they they look at people who've done better than says oh I'm just as good as them they were lucky but of course for for wherever you are there are 10 people below you that weren't there and you want to make sure you put yourself in a position to see as many open doors as possible and then you have to be able to walk through it but but you got to be grinding. Um but sometimes you grind and that door doesn't appear. No. So you got to grind harder. Grind harder, I guess. Even though sometimes it feels like you can't. Uh I mean luck is definitely it exists uh for for more for some people than than others. I actually think with short form like when you look at those it's shifted in the equation that in fact because of the nature of verality and something just clicking and all that the ratio of those three things um which is why they just put more out there put more out there put more out there put more out there and hopefully one of them just pops. Yeah, short form is a tricky one. I have some with a lot of views and I have some with that don't have any traction at all and it just doesn't make any sense. but I'm not really too worried about it either to be honest. All right, let's let's talk about um uh um all your collaborators and all your collaborations. Oh, here we go. Right. Because I I I was doing of course research and I couldn't keep track of Jelly Crane or Slogo. Uh so you've got a whole crew that's gone in and out and um uh first for those who don't know about that, talk about that a little and then I have a question. Yeah, sure. So, um, back when I started, uh, like I think when I was was 16, 17 years old, I met a guy named Quubblecop who was quite decently popular at the time already. And I also was popular at the time and, uh, we we both connected and we both found out that, hey, what we're doing is pretty unique and uh, we're both really good at it. Uh, obviously both being young young at the time. So, we both kind of convinced each other to quit school and focus on this YouTube thing. So, we rented a place in Amsterdam. I moved out and we just we just sent it. And the funny part is even though I lived with this guy for a year, I barely saw him. Yeah. I barely saw him. The only place I saw him was online. We were recording every single day 12 hours a day working together. But we were in the same space. We'd have like a dinner together or I never saw You mean never saw him physically. You were in your room. He was in his room and saw each other physically. That's hilarious. Yeah. Like it was it was a grind. M um and um at the time we also knew some other creators online. So that that was Quubble Cop and uh we knew some other creators online uh that some of them we worked with consistently and some of them not. And eventually we kind of formed a group together with uh so it was Quubble Cop and Slogo you mentioned his name and so he's from the UK. The reason I didn't mention QBOP is because I read the name I was like I don't know how to pronounce his name. Yeah. It means Chatter Hat. Cedar Hat in Dut in Dutch. Yeah. Chatterhead. So um yeah. And so then we we just kind of naturally formed a group. We never really like branded it properly, which we could have, maybe we should have. Uh but we at the time we were very young and it's like I said, this this whole industry was and it still is so fragile, right? So you don't want to like overdo things or put yourself into a position where you're not going to get other things. So um we never really we never really had a group name. I'd say like the core fan base knows we had something going on but we never like branded it properly. We never had any merchandise around it. We never and because we kind of wanted to remain flexible which in the end happened to be very flexible because then people leave and come back but from reading it's like it's been in and out and then which is which is a bit sad to be honest. I wish we just had one need group that we could ride all the way to the end with but that didn't happen. Um, uh, I mean, obviously I'm not going to speak for any of the others, but, uh, I think, uh, the first guy he left because he had a burnout. Uh, you know, we were doing two videos a day for years, five, six years, and eventually that just catches up on you, especially especially when you're not uh, dealing with things that you have to deal with in your private life. So, you know, that happens. We were waiting for him for a while to see maybe he's kind of going to come back. Uh, but that didn't really happen. And so then we randomly found another creator uh named Craner who's going to be here today. Uh yeah, and we just organically had a good time with him and then we started recording with him. And uh then he left. So Right. And now and then I left and then and then and then you came back. Uh well, no actually I I didn't really there's kind of like we're all just individual creators that we just record uh with other people like uh but we still we all still know each other. So yeah. Yeah. And and and one of the things is you've intermixed your personal friendships with collaboration. Yeah. But I feel like that's natural in this type of business, you know, like we're all we're all we're all people, right? Um, so you you you all we all know each other personally, but we're all running our own business and we're actually our biggest competitors. This is like super risky. Um, yeah, but that's just that's the business kind of, you know. So although although I think the thing I I do think one of the differences between streaming and and you know YouTube videos is streaming is at its very foundation collaborative. Yeah. Because to get up there and live stream by yourself repeatedly, you know, really if you think about all they all are in the groups, whether it's Kai with AM or whether it's OTK or whether as as you look at um Tubbo and all the Minecraft that collaborate together, collaboration is so foundational. Interestingly, someone like I show Speed is the exception. True. Right. You know, when you think of big streamers, you don't think of many that aren't always collaborating with someone, right? Um uh but in YouTube that there are a lot of YouTube you know creators that are by you know by them you know themselves right predominantly by themselves. So I find it interesting that your creator group actually it had a lot of those same characteristics that you see in these live groups right but y'all were all doing predominantly YouTube videos. Yeah. Yeah. It's it's tough. We're all running our own business at the same time. We all had our own team. we had some kind of rules behind the scenes like, you know, we can't snatch each other's editors, each other's thumbnail designers, uh, or or just people that work for us in general. Um, and that went well for the most part, but I can guarantee you being in a group is very tough and actually much more tough than just being the the main man of the show, just running your own team. Um, you know, everyone's running their own business for their own best interests and um, that has challenges, let's just say. And if you if you're make making the comparison to the other streamer groups, there's usually just one A player and then the rest are just B players. And uh the problem with uh many YouTube groups and ours in particular is like we were all the A player. Mhm. So, and that that doesn't work, Does that make sense? Right. Right. No, no, no. That that it I mean it's a human nature thing. Yeah. Right. You know, when you think of human nature and tribes and all that, a lot of times you end up there is this, but who's at the top? Right. And it's unusual for groups of people to get together without one being, you know, the there's always one shining. There's always one shining. And uh there's reasons for that as well. You know, he might have things figured out differently, better, or he's just much more funny. Yeah. Or whatever. Uh and that's actually good as well. Like for the B players as well, they can become the A player eventually. Yeah. You know, they sometimes they go off on their own. It's possible to stay at the top forever. Right. Right. You see that you see that in all walks. So innovate over him, do things that are better, different. You see that in music where you have a music group one and then someone else pops up. So, so talk about um you know as you've had success, okay, how that um uh changes in terms of feeling some pressure from that success. That's a good question. I mean, um the the success online is a weird one because still to this day, I do all my work at home in a guest bedroom. So, I don't I I've always tried to keep keep myself a little bit grounded. I don't want to have an office full of people working for me because I think that could be dangerous. Uh, it could also make things a little bit too serious. And I think the fun part about this creative job that we have is is actually keep it kind of low-key because that's more then you're more true in the content and true to yourself and true to your audience, right? Because if I'm going to move far away from what got me where I am, how's the audience going to perceive that? So pressure-wise, as long as you're at home, there's no real pressure in my opinion. They're just numbers on a screen. Of course, if you go to a real life venue and or an event like TwitchCon and there's a bunch of people that know you, that's just weird. Like these numbers are real people. That doesn't really make any sense. But when you're like to me anyway when I'm at my house like I don't I don't really think about it. I don't I turn off my phone or my PC and it's gone. I I I wonder um uh is if some of that is being is being Dutch and being like there is this keep up with the Joneses. If you're living in LA and everybody's living in LA and trying to get ahead, you feel like you always have to be getting somewhere. And it seems like that's the pressure of being in a bubble, right? And it seems like at some point as opposed to you feeling like I need to be somewhere else, it seems like for a little while you're kind of happy with where you're at. Or do you feel like no, I got to get to the next rung of the ladder. Well, I definitely still feel like I want to level up my game. Don't get me wrong. It's not like I don't want to work for it anymore. I I want to work really. No, I'm not saying you don't want to get better creatively. There's a difference between I want to keep innovating. Yeah. and keep creating. And there's a difference between that and evaluating it purely by whether or not you're bigger than the next guy. Yeah. So, I'll be realistic. I want to be the biggest guy doing GTA content. And that's going to be very tough because everybody's going to be doing it, right? So, it's about putting the ground. You're not the biggest guy right now. Uh, no. On YouTube, definitely not. Who's the biggest guy? Oh, that's a good question. Um, his name's Trayon. I think the guy's good buddy in the room right here. I think he's the biggest GTA player on YouTube. For streaming, I wouldn't know. I'm looking at you there. That's a good question. You see, the game's so old, man. Yeah. Same. The game is so old. Oh, so on streaming. On streaming, it's RP is what? Yeah, RP is huge. Um, it could even be like a non-English creator to be very honest with you. But when GTA 6 is coming along, everybody and their grandma's going to play that game. So, whoever is the biggest GTA player right now, when that game comes, it's probably going to be Mr. Beast, to be very honest with you. Yeah. Every everyone got to play. He's the biggest now. So, if he's going to play it, he's going to be the biggest one. But, uh I just like I'm just trying to create the absolute best content I could possibly do. That's why I'm uploading a whole lot less. Just trying to level up the production game. Just trying to uh produce the absolute best videos. And then once we've got the ball rolling there, try and optimize to um instead of producing one to two videos a week, produce three to four a week. You know, get them we we try we try and speed things up. I think that's kind of the best workflow for me right now. So, are you are you and holding back is the wrong word, but I'll use it. holding back some of your creative ideas for GTA 6 where No, I'm not because no one no one nobody knows except for you maybe. Uh nobody knows. They are so good at making sure nobody knows. Nobody knows. There's rumors that it's going to just be a single player game for the first x amount of time. If that's the case, I think many creators are screwed. Um I I mean, if they drop online, what will it look like? Will it be like Roblox where everybody can create their own worlds? Um, which I think has a lot of good opportunities for, you know, small game developers right now or also content creators that have game development teams. Um well the interesting thing is I think the one thing we the the thing that was amazing about GTA 5 was um they built a platform that that allowed a tremendous amount of expressiveness creatively. Right. That's why you can still create GTA 5 um videos. Sure. Right. Because and it really at some level the the platform allows you to creatively express yourself. And the one thing we know almost for sure is like the amount that GTA 6 will allow you to creatively express ideas will be an order of magnitude more than GTA 5. Well, I hope so. We don't know for sure. It will 13 years it better be. Yeah, that's true. That's true. But the world has also changed. You know, I think um back then you could maybe do a whole lot more things that maybe right now games are a bit more too careful of. I I don't know. I uh but it's definitely going to be crazy. Uh we know that and the only thing that I am preparing right now is is what I just said. I'm preparing my team for it. So I want to optimize the team to make sure if I need more people on on XY Z side of the job that I have people there to help me. Um what about now what about role play? Have you done much role play? I actually recently like about six months ago kind of I'm I'm rolling into role play. Let's call it like that. So yes, I've been doing role play and that's so tough. So different for content it is so tough particularly video content I actually think it's very good to stream roleplay but for a content creator where we need a hook we need a a solid ending and actually the way we record content is we know the ending before we record it otherwise like we don't have a goal to work right right but for RP somebody could just come up to me and take me hostage and then for the next half hour I'm just stuck in this bank robbery that I don't really want to be So I that I I struggle recording RP content. So what I've done is I've actually launched my own RP server simply to record content. Uh so this is kind of like a content server where uh we we are able to record content and other other creators can come along too. Uh so it's not just for me. Everybody's allowed to come and record content. But the the idea is everybody who's there roleplaying gives the content creators a little bit of freedom. let's say, you know, to to Now, now when you role play, what's what's your character? Are you uh Well, I'm a criminal. Uh yeah, a criminal character, by the way. All right, guys. I'm a criminal character. Uh and uh I mean uh what's old? How old are you? I'm myself pretty much. I have a fake last name. Okay. But you're basically yourself as a criminal. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, I mean to mention that some people there's like you know for when I've done role play once and I'd love to do more role play. So fun. And I was a um uh the name was um I have to remember um Nelson Jennings. Cuz I was a washed up country singer that um had too used to be big but I had done the bottle a little too much and now I was doing little you know you're really good at role playing. I like it. Yeah. Mine's like it depends on which server you're at and and and what how strict the role playing is. But for me like for the content we're just very loose because it's just impossible otherwise. Right. I think that'll be one of the because of course on Twitch role play is huge. Yeah. And you know one of the interesting thing is as you said there's you know lots of uncertainty about the one thing we know is GTA 6 won't be all of it in terms of role play and and and online and everything right. The first version is always gonna have more stuff to do. And so it'll be interesting the ebbing back and flow between six and five and all that. Yeah. I mean, what can you imagine what the next five years is going to look like? I mean, I know that many game companies are even delaying their game titles. Oh. Because of GTA 6. I just I don't know what's going on. Yeah. I mean, they were doing that last year and then they're like, I don't know if we want to go out in the fall. Oh my goodness. It's uh Yeah. It's going to be amazing for the creator space. Yeah. Yeah, the creator and the creative space that this this title what they're doing is just incredible for my job. It's great. Now, have you ever played around with IRL streaming or not? Uh, let me think. No, I I mean, I've done IRL streaming, but not with the whole like backpack kind of thing. My sense is my sense is you like the I mean, there there's the one thing that's great, especially about GTA, is the narrative story that you're telling. Yeah. Right. as opposed to just you, right? You're telling a story there. Yeah. And so it's just very different when um uh um you know, it's all about you because it's not just about you, it's about the story. And IRL streaming is just a little different because it's all about you in the world. It's crazy. It's I actually enjoy watching it. It's very fun to watch to just see what what somebody else gets up to in their day, right? But to me, it always seems, especially if you're a big IRL streamer, you're just like a massive target walking around, you know, because people come up to you and they they want to get attention, so they might like troll you or I I don't know. I like I always think of the safety elements and I'm just like, I don't know if I would want to do that, you know, dox myself like that. I don't know. That's what I said. No, there's some that No, I don't I don't need to be that far out front. No. Yeah. I I never really share where I am or what I do like anyway. like which is also one of the differences with live streaming versus the the um creating video is you are putting yourself out there right and for some people that just comes natural for other people it make it's kind of uncomfortable yeah for sure I mean yeah I think live streaming has especially IRL streaming can have definitely some danger to it um and also you have like these swatting things going on sometimes on on on on gamers and you know so I don't know how what happens, how they get doxed, I have no idea. But, you know, I I've always just been tried to be super careful uh of of to show where I am and or where I live even because I I don't want anything like that to happen. I just All right. So, talk now about are there how much do you like think about mistakes you've made, worry about mistakes away? You know, are there any mistakes you've made that said, "Oh, I wish I would have done this. I wish it well actually I can reel it all the way back to what you mentioned. I I don't know if we were live already, but uh what I should have done at the time is is is taken more risk and actually uh spread out my audience over all the platforms where I can be creative and uh I should have done more of that because that would have turned out better for me. But um at the time I didn't feel like I had to and it was a fragile time so I didn't do it. But realistically, I should have spread my wings and and and tell my followers to follow me everywhere, you know? And I think that's probably the biggest mistake a creator can make right now is is is to not spread out. Like if you are blowing up blowing up right now on let's say Tik Tok, like spread out immediately. If you've got live viewers on Tik Tok right now, tell them to go follow you on Twitch, on on Instagram, on YouTube, and produce content for them everywhere and see what sticks because what even if this is working for you right now, there's no guarantees that that is going to work for you in 6 months time or in a year's time. So, um that's the biggest mistake I think like new creators can make or just creators in general. All right. Well, that actually is perfect. Okay. because one of the questions they ask is, "Well, what advice do you have for a new creator?" And you nailed it. Okay. So, um, we're going to go ahead and wrap up the podcast right now because we're moving Twitch is moving over to, um, uh, another of the things here. So, thank you for tuning into the podcast. Uh, we stream it on Twitch with a live audience. We really appreciate Yeah. Thank you, Dad. Being here. Join us on twitch.tv twitch for the next show. Follow Twitch socials. Rate and view. See you in chat. This has been great. and move on over.